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Posted by u/ff12wq111 24 days ago
Ask HN: Is true democracy possible in online tech communities?
Most online communities start democratic but eventually become oligarchies. Reddit has upvotes but moderators have absolute power. Discord servers are basically digital dictatorships.

I've been wondering: Is it possible to build a truly democratic tech community?

Key challenges: - How do you prevent mob rule while maintaining democracy? - Should all voices be equal, or should expertise/contribution matter? - How do you handle spam/quality without authoritarian moderation?

Curious if anyone has seen successful examples, or has thoughts on what the key principles should be.

(Context: Currently researching governance models for a developer platform)

ethan_smith · 24 days ago
Discourse's trust level system (https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-t...) offers a practical example of democratic governance that scales through automated promotion/demotion based on participation patterns rather than explicit voting or moderator intervention.
ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
Great example! The Discourse trust levels are exactly what I've been thinking about.

We're experimenting with something similar - a "Star" system where users earn influence through contributions and can spend it on governance decisions. Early results suggest contribution-based voting leads to much more thoughtful decisions.

How well does Discourse handle controversial governance choices? I'm curious if trust levels work when communities face difficult decisions.

WHA8m · 23 days ago
haven't looked into the link, but the way you phrase it, I'd be worried you're creating a system that only gets gamified. Trust should not directly feel like a reward.
armchairhacker · 24 days ago
Not tips for a "democracy" but a "good, tolerant community":

- Use a boilerplate rules list like "no spam, no personal attacks, no hate speech, don't be obnoxious, etc." (but more specific, e.g https://www.statsoc.org.au/Forum-rules or https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201265337-Fo...). Have a "no politics" rule unless you want culture warring on your platform for whatever reason.

- Then you enforce the rules as you see fit. The final rule should be "moderators have discretion" and if someone is pushing against the rules and/or irritating others, ban them. At the same time, be lenient and give second and third chances at least for non-blatant offenses; escalate, first with a warning, then with a temp ban, then a longer temp ban, etc. It's a careful balance, but if done correctly, your form will be both tolerant and not dominated by assholes.

- To prevent spam and banned users opening new accounts, either: make the form invite-only (where users can invite others) and screen applicants; charge a small fee for signing up; require flexible proof of identity (e.g. one of: phone #, Google account, GitHub account, Facebook account, etc.); require new user posts to be approved by moderators before they show up; or something else. This will make it significantly harder for your userbase to grow, and many people will refuse to sign up, but it will be hard and some people won't sign up anyways.

- If your forum grows enough, you can recruit moderators. You need enough people and activity to select moderators who you trust, because every time you override their moderation or kick them beyond "very rarely", you look worse (more incompetent, power-tripping, incoherent) and the overall community "vibes" become slightly more toxic.

ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
This is solid advice, but I'm wondering about a different approach entirely. What if we don't have moderators at all? Just build a small, self-governing community - get the right initial group of people, then freeze registration once we hit critical mass.

The idea is more like an internet utopia - if the participants are engaged and high-quality enough, maybe traditional moderation becomes unnecessary? We're not trying to scale to millions of users anyway.Have you seen small, closed communities work without formal moderation? Or does human nature always require some kind of enforcement mechanism?

conception · 24 days ago
I have been a part of several of these. They work but the problem is attrition. People move on eventually and you need some amount of growth. An invite system is how most deal with this.
ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
This is excellent practical advice. The invite-only approach especially resonates - we're actually planning something similar.

I'm curious about the cold start dilemma though: invite-only is great for quality, but creates a chicken-and-egg problem for early adoption. Do you think it's worth the slower growth from day one?

Also, for initial promotion - better to avoid platforms like Twitter (where average user quality is lower) and focus on higher-quality channels, even if reach is smaller?

Would love your thoughts on balancing growth vs quality in early stages.

WHA8m · 23 days ago
We're talking to AI, aren't we?
PaulHoule · 24 days ago
I see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

As the real problem. I don’t tend to believe in natural hierarchies, but I do believe in this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

That in some sense that early adopters are better than other people and that things start out cool and deteriorate and one way to counter that when the party gets too big you start a new party and get the early adopters to come along. I would point out this essay

https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

And say that I think her analysis is right factually but I take the opposite position that the ‘structureless’ organization she describes is capable of activism that more sustainable groups just can’t do and say form that kind of organization when you can and know it isn’t going to last.

Sustainability is non-profit speak for ‘profitability’ and if you value that an organization because Oxfam or the ACLU or the Mozilla Foundation and suffers from the corruption of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

I’d say ‘benign despotism’ is alright for an organization where you’ve got the right to exit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty

But due process, democracy and all that are necessary for when you don’t have exit.

Jurgen Habermas wrote a ponderous 2 volume book

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Communicative_Ac...

which pursues the idea of a perfect deliberative process which one some hand seems closer because of widespread electronic communications yet our experience with things like Twitter makes it seem terribly naive between (1) people not acting in good faith and (2) others believing that people are not acting in good faith.

ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
This level of thinking is exactly what we need more of in community design.

We're actually launching a developer platform called GistFans that experiments with these governance questions - contribution-based voting, transparent processes, etc.

Would love your perspective on our approach - happy to share details if you're interested.

ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
I owe you an apology - your brilliant analysis deserved much better than my brief response earlier. You provided the most thoughtful theoretical framework in this entire discussion, and I responded with just a throwaway line. That wasn't respectful of the depth you brought.

Your analysis of Habermas and "perfect deliberative process" is exactly what we're grappling with in GistFans. The tension you identify between early adopter quality and scalability, the corruption of sustainable organizations vs the power of "structureless" activism - these are the core contradictions we're trying to navigate.

We're experimenting with a "Stars" system where users earn influence through contributions, then spend these stars on governance decisions. The hypothesis: when participation has real cost (earned influence), people might act more thoughtfully - potentially addressing both the good faith problem AND the "believing others act in bad faith" issue you mention about Twitter.

But your point about "benign despotism with exit rights" is fascinating. Maybe the key isn't eliminating hierarchy but making it transparent and merit-based rather than arbitrary?

We're deliberately staying small and experimental rather than chasing sustainability/growth. Better to run genuine experiments that inform future builders than create another corrupted institution.

Have you seen any examples where contribution-based influence actually improved deliberative quality? Or do the fundamental human nature issues make this unsolvable through design?

blackqueeriroh · 23 days ago
Even when you say “merit-based,” you now have to define what “merit” is.
zeroCalories · 24 days ago
Was on a discord server that let everyone delete one comment and temporarily ban someone using a command. People were careful to not misuse it because people would just use it on them if they did. Unfortunately it broke down when big factions started coordinating attacks, and smaller factions just left the server entirely.
ff12wq111 · 24 days ago
Thanks for sharing that example! That's exactly the kind of failure mode I worry about with pure democratic systems.

The "retaliation equilibrium" working initially is fascinating - shows that peer accountability can work at small scale. But the faction coordination problem seems almost inevitable as communities grow.

Makes me think the key might be preventing large factions from forming in the first place, rather than trying to make democracy work despite them.

mzk_pi · 24 days ago
There may be challenges unique to online communities, but in our real-world community, we’ve implemented a protocol specifically designed to address this issue— a system built to prevent the emergence of gatekeepers, and it's actually working in practice. There are small problems, sure, but they haven't disrupted or degraded the overall service.

In fact, we’ve seen people who try to assert authority join the community, but they usually don’t last long. They naturally drift away because they don’t truly understand the value of long-term commitment and authentic relationships.

If you're interested, we've written a formal proof that explains how the structure prevents gatekeeping:

https://github.com/contribution-protocol/contribution-protoc...

aristofun · 23 days ago
What exactly is true democracy? Even socrates back in the days understood that it is far from ideal (or “true”) form. Anyway all the flaws stem from human nature and human nature has nothing to do with technology.
firefax · 22 days ago
One big issue is a core tenet of democracy is one person, one vote -- online, it's easy for people to spin up nyms and skew things.
ff12wq111 · 23 days ago
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion - your insights on democratic governance really helped refine our thinking.