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Posted by u/throwaway052501 7 months ago
Ask HN: Almost a thousand dollars for a 20 minute new patient visit?
I live in the Bay Area and have a high-deductible health plan. Recently, my primary care doctor left UCSF to become a concierge physician — tired of the bureaucracy and low pay despite managing thousands of patients annually.

I booked a new-patient visit with a UCSF physician. The appointment lasted about 20 minutes. A few weeks later, I got the bill: $867. I assumed it was a mistake, but after calling, I learned this was the correct charge for CPT code 99204 (new patient visit, 45–59 minutes). Insurance won’t cover it due to my deductible.

This feels absurd. I get that healthcare is broken, especially in tech-heavy cities like SF, but $867 for a routine visit is hard to justify.

Is anyone working on viable alternatives? Concierge models? Subscription care? Could this be a startup opportunity or is regulation the only fix? Curious how others are navigating this and whether there's a scalable path forward.

deanmoriarty · 7 months ago
In the Bay Area:

- A 10 min visit to a specialist office, where I was seen by a nurse practitioner who was able to refer me to an exam without involving the main physician, costed $800 (just the visit, not the followup exam), which also went through deductible.

- A routine colonoscopy came at $19k with bills that kept coming for the next 6-12 months from various parties. Consumed my deductible in one shot as the first bill came.

- A visit to the ER that lasted 10 mins with an XRay costed me $5k, also sent in tranches for the next 6 months, to the point where I thought I was victim of some scam (I wasn’t). Maxed my deductible as well.

I have a couple non-critical health concerns right now I’d like to consult a doctor about, but I won’t drop another huge deductible just for that.

I am a dual citizen from a European country with a high quality healthcare public system (but admittedly longer waits than the US ). I’m not eligible for it since I’m not a resident anymore (I will when/if I move back), but as I went visiting family I booked a private appointment with a well known cardiologist and he spent a good 50 minutes with me, for a total of EUR 100.

rasz · 7 months ago
>A routine colonoscopy came at $19k

$80-300 in capital of Poland when going full private. Its crazy than not everyone in US is combining medical/dental procedures with Euro/Asia vacation yet.

tkiolp4 · 7 months ago
Totally. $19K sounds crazy. Even if you have that money, what it’s like one or two months of salary there in SV for a well paid engineer.

You could go to Germany, Spain, France, and get a decent colonoscopy at a decent private clinic for what, less than a thousand perhaps.

voytec · 7 months ago
Also, the quality of service is top notch. Not just the procedure execution but in private dental clinics (in Gdańsk) you lay down on a bed and there's a sizeable OLED screen at the ceiling with slow-mo clips sporting waterfalls, beaches, mountains and other "nice views" you'd expect from a deep house music clip. The background music is elevator-like though.
AStonesThrow · 7 months ago
Don't ever accept a provider's bill or invoice at face value. Did you communicate with your insurance carrier? Their major function is to negotiate those billed charges down to something reasonable.

My provider billed $411 for the same CPT. My insurance slashed it by 50%. My copay was $40. No deductible applied, due to the plan's provision for a PCP visit.

You'll need to ensure that your insurance did their job and issued an EOB. Once the insurance has ruled on it, then you can proceed to negotiate with your provider. If the provider directly sent you a balance bill and you've not heard from your insurance carrier, then you need to reach out to insurance, not your creditors.

The creditor will also have avenues you may pursue, such as financial assistance or self-pay plans. Some may not be available due to your insurance coverage. Some people fly without a parachute and rely on the self-pay. You'd be surprised how zero-sum that can be.

Most notices demanding payment are subtly deceptive, even from legitimate creditors. I always rely on the online billing portal, or a human being who can pull up my account over the phone. Always get the latest statement. Compare all the paperwork, because timing and wording always matter a lot, especially when they're wrong!

AStonesThrow · 7 months ago
These commenters who say a service “cost” $X or they paid $Y amount: I am concerned for your negotiation skills.

I once incurred a $30,000 hospital bill while putatively uninsured. As soon as I was discharged, I went on alert for a statement. As soon as I obtained the numbers, I began to negotiate.

I contacted my prior insurance carriers. I carefully read the CFPB documents on debt collection and I downloaded their letter templates. I tracked every account and claim and payment and provider in a custom Google Sheet.

I filed for retroactive Medicaid. They determined me eligible and granted retroactive coverage through my month of hospitalization. Medicaid attempted to disavow this.

I produced the documentation sent from the Medicaid office. They gave me the wrong claims office address. I worked with claimants to correct it. The statement still reflected $30,000. I held my ground, and insisted that coverage had been obtained.

Not long after these exchanges, one day, my balance was $0.

They wiped out my entire debt.

They wrote off the whole thing.

I was absolved of responsibility.

Because I played their game and kept my purse-strings closed.

Never believe a creditor’s bill at face value. You should never pay a medical bill on receipt from a provider without checking all portals, all statements, and asking questions. Payment plans often carry no penalty and no interest. If they offer you a 60-month plan, offer them 72 months. Uninsured? Ask for “self-pay plan”. Search their website for Financial Assistance Program forms, fill out the PDF, file it with all the documentation they requested. Get busy on FAPing. Go back to the hospital, find their billing department, and burst into tears once you’re comfy in their office. Turn over bank statements, no matter how wet they got.

Your insurance carrier should always be responsible for receiving every bill, negotiating prices, and estimating how much you ultimately need to pay.

Don’t be a sucker.

JohnFen · 7 months ago
That's great if you're in a position to be able to do it. When I had a major medical issue resulting in a five figure bill I had to pay out of pocket, I was busy with a long recovery and simply wasn't capable, mentally, physically or emotionally, of figuring out what of hoops to jump through and then jumping through them. It was an impossibility.
AStonesThrow · 7 months ago
We’re approaching a crisis of caregiving in the West. Every one of us needs a loved one who is trustworthy enough, available, and willing to step in as an emergency contact, POA or proxy, in case you are incapacitated in some way.

There is a growing and aging population simply fending for themselves. Is that what A.I. is supposed to “solve”?

cjbenedikt · 7 months ago
I experienced exactly the same only even more expensive: $1300! The US health care system has deeply entrenched players:care providers,insurers, hospitals, pharma industry. All make a lot of money from it. Several startups tried to tackle it. Even the combination of Amazon& Buffett &JPMorgan that set out to change it eventually caved. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/04/haven-the-amazon-berkshire-j... Hopeless case.
BobbyTables2 · 7 months ago
New primary care doctor did the same to me recently.

Made me wait 30 minutes for a 60 minute new patient appointment (based on the billing code) when the actual time with them was 10-15 minutes (and spent discussing history).

They didn’t even possess an Otoscope for looking inside the ear.

Charged >$400 and still cost me over $250.

I’ve seen other specialists that charge $100 for a visit.

andrei_says_ · 7 months ago
A health industry dedicated to maximizing extraction cannot possibly provide an affordable health care. Affordability nor care are amongst its purpose. Extraction is.

Providing Health services is a side effect, and one to be minimized while maximizing profit.

There is no care in the system. It is barbaric, inhumane, brutal, cruel, unforgiving.

gigatree · 7 months ago
Makes you wonder how far that invisible hand goes. If extraction is the purpose, then doesn’t the incentive exist to not just keep you sick, but to make you sick?
muzani · 7 months ago
There's the invisible foot aka bounded rationality = people act with the info they have, and often not the knowledge of delays.

People will extract all they can, and even support high prices among other extractors. They're not thinking about healing. They're thinking about their kids (who are probably doing medical school), their loans, and getting compensated for their sacrifices – the years of schooling, late nights, low initial pay.

Eventually they overextract, same with the tech bubble leading into layoffs. It doesn't take that long, but long enough for people to be blindsided by it.

yongjik · 7 months ago
Yes the system is broken - but that's how HDHP (high deductible health plan) works. Presumably your employer is contributing to your HSA, and your bill gets cheaper once you hit your "high deductible", so when you sum up everything it's slightly better than other plans.

Basically, HDHP is a yearly package deal. You choose it and accept that every year your initial hospital bill will look insane.

If your employer isn't contributing to your HSA I don't think there's any reason to choose HDHP. Or, if you (like me) don't like the feeling of doing the mental equivalent of income tax filing every time you go to hospital, HDHP isn't for you.

Disclaimer: I'm horrible with money and this comment is not financial or health advice.

j4nek · 7 months ago
by voting for trump, haven't americans actively decided against solidarity-based health insurance?
mickelsen · 7 months ago
The US system is a special case that goes beyond partisan politics, framing it as a lack of solidarity misses the point.

The real issue is that healthcare in the US has no functioning market and no effective regulation: prices are arbitrary, patients only see costs after the fact (even if you insist cash on something simple, the itemized bill takes forever), and insurers mostly exist to extract value. Both major parties keep allowing this to exist.

In other countries (even with hybrid social systems, multi-payer, etc) there’s at least transparency and accountability. You know what you owe upfront, and regulators monitor excessive price disparities. Differentiation is allowed, but it’s still regulated.

Do you really believe UHG's 6% profit margin? US Insurance is basically private equity draining cash through inflated bills, with providers and insurers passing the buck while fleecing patients.

arp242 · 7 months ago
> The US system is a special case that goes beyond partisan politics, framing it as a lack of solidarity misses the point.

The last time someone tried to improve things he was Adolf Stalin for trying to recreate Nazi Communist Germany. Or something. Something similar (albeit less extreme) happened in the 90s.

Fixing any of this does start with politics and there is a huge political elephant standing in the way here. It's really not a "both sides" issue when one side uses every bad faith trick in the book to obstruct anything the other side does while proposing nothing of their own.

AStonesThrow · 7 months ago
I surmise that you are referring to "universal healthcare". The President does not get to choose a model of healthcare for the nation, so no, my vote was not cast against whatever you're talking about.

Here are a few aspects of the Affordable Care Act:

- In the before times, health insurance was strongly tied to American employers. Their group purchasing power made it affordable, and it is counted in the benefits package. A quitting employee, or a firing employer, would have the understanding that, barring COBRA and other mitigations, the separated employee would lose their group insurance benefit.

- Many hospital systems have offered financial assistance, and self-pay plans, to uninsured patients. Qualify for Medicaid/Medicare, or avail yourself of one of these plans.

- The Affordable Care Act is a tax on the uninsured. Purchase insurance with the tax, or pay the tax directly. "Uninsured" is now the worst situation to be in, financially.

- The ACA signaled to employers, "fire at will." If an employee needs to be fired then they can scoop up insurance on the marketplace. The employer no longer needs to worry about the separated employee's well-being.

- Meanwhile, the employees have received the message "quit all you want." If you can live without the salary then you can scoop up an ACA plan on the Marketplace. Your risk of crippling medical debt is thereby somewhat mitigated.

- Various groups have been setting up Health Sharing plans which affirm that the Health Insurance model is irreparably broken. A Christian Health Sharing Ministry is a mutual-aid fund where members pool their funds and then expenses are paid according to their needs, per the Book of Acts, and mostly conforming to quasi-insurance regulations.

We're all limping towards Universal Healthcare and Single-Payer Insurance. That's the eventual end-game for most pundits. It may go back and forth for a while. But nobody can deny that we're aiming to replicate models in the UK and Canada.