Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

cdata · a year ago

I used a Framework 13" as my daily driver for 3 years. I still have it, and now I also have a Framework 16", which has been my daily driver for the last six months.

The user serviceability and upgrade stories are real. The hardware isn't as svelte as Apple's, but mine has traveled all over the world and has yet to have any major issues. The one hardware failure I had was that the USB-C half of the charging cable on my 13" eventually broke after a few years of abuse, but that used to happen to me with Apple charging cables, too.

Framework has an active initiative to do outreach to different Linux distro communities and give them free hardware to help shore up compatibility. And, on that note, I haven't run into any Linux hardware compatibility issues (not with Pop!_OS, or more recently NixOS).

Speaking for myself, they have a loyal customer for as long as they continue to make this kind of hardware.

snapplebobapple · a year ago

I love mine too (have owned every 13" they have made either personally or at work, plus the new 16"). Having the actual usb recessed and having a sacrificial usb-c as the one you use has saved taken me from breaking usb-c ports at roughly one a year to zero. The upgradeability and serviceability is real as well.

That beings said, my complaints about them are: They are a few hundred dollars more expensive than comparable hardware most of the time.

They were pretty slow releasing bios updates, although they seem to be getting faster at that.

There is no kensington lock.

After seeing the Linus tour of the factory where they fully assemble the DIY edition for testing and then take it back apart for shipping. I'm kind of annoyed. Find a different way to discount home users, you're spending more labor to get a lower price for your product.

ieidkeheb · a year ago

Tbh it probably is cheaper for them to test that it powers up ... There would be nothing worse than building a laptop to find it was an RMA deal.... I would expect that the social media backlash could kill the product...

Iridescent_ · a year ago

I fully expect that the intention is to force you into opening up the laptop to install the RAM. RAM is so easy to install that there's basically no risk of the customer messing up, and it exposes you to how easy it is to open up your laptop and how high quality the build is. Worked very well for me, I knew I would not accept buying anything of a lower standard before I even powered it on for the first time.

registeredcorn · a year ago

Glad to hear it! I'm interested to know, though:

How rigid would you say the frame is for Frameworks? Do you feel any flex at all when typing? Screen shake?

Over time, some of the laptops I've tried (cheap and expensive, many different brands) just feel like they start to fall apart. Either the screen hinges are junk and fail, leading to screen shake/nod whenever I type...or the frame is too weak, and the laptop itself starts to bend inward over time because I type hard.

If I could get something with an incredibly rugged frame, and excellent hinges, it'd be wonderful. I've seriously considered Toughbook's in the past, but the keyboard feeling for them is atrocious and the specs are always too weak.

commandersaki · a year ago

Bought a Framework 13" in 2022 (Intel 13th gen). It's equipped with 32GB ram and a 1TB drive.

It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality.

Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Theseus with it.

Pain points:

  - display hinge problem, picking up the laptop would make the screen lie flat 180 degrees, which is really annoying - this has been fixed in newer versions of framework, but to get a new hinge kit costs $39 AUD plus $30 AUD in shipping, so I'm not willing to make that purchase due to the ridiculous shipping price.

  - the modular ports are nice, but I'd rather just have fixed ports and more of them, of course that'd obstruct the repair/modularity story.

  - sometimes the modular ports do not work after resuming from a hibernate, I have to eject and reseat it.

  - the display is okay, I notice mine has a small granular line of off coloured pixels - i don't think this is due to any physical damage but rather a defect in the screen as I've never had this kind of issue with any other laptop and I've handled the framework fairly carefully; but this line of off coloured pixels is very faint and virtually unnoticeable at bright colours, so it's not a huge deal as I make it out to be.

  - the keyboard works great, but I was hoping for an upgrade to something along the lines of an apple style layout with half height inverted-t arrow keys and fn/ctrl swapped; the idea of a marketplace for custom parts doesn't seem to really exist.

  - Battery life of about 3-4 hours of very average usage.

  - Speakers are trash.

The webcam / mic are good enough.

I run Linux on it, and seems to run pretty stable.

I needed this laptop because I needed 32GB of ram for compile jobs. I have since got a macbook pro 16" with >32GB of ram and it can compile what I need using Rosetta 2 for Linux (so amd64 compiles). Since my mac can now do everything I need, I very rarely touch my Framework. I loathe the idea of having to use it over a mac laptop.

tomcam · a year ago

First off, thanks for the fair-minded review. It answered pretty much every significant question I had about the Frame.

Second, I would like you to rethink a decision. You didn’t ask for my advice, and I’m sorry to be so rude as to give it to you. But I’m hoping it will save you a bunch of pain.

When I read this, I really felt for you:

    a new hinge kit costs $39 AUD plus $30 AUD in shipping

If you are a programmer or use your laptop a lot during the day, I would like you to consider making the purchase anyway. That sounds pretty annoying to me, and it seems to me that $70 AUD might very well be worth the investment to preserve your sanity and your flow.

Sometimes we just buy the wrong tool and have to replace it. If $70 AUD is, say, 2-4 hours of your labor after taxes, I bet having that constant drag on the edges of your consciousness removed would be worthwhile.

For me it is almost always worth the replacement if it makes my working day easier and helps yield more billable hours. Plus, I bet if your significant other were that bothered by it, you would be only too happy to get the upgrade.

Again, apologies for thinking you need my help in this matter.

commandersaki · a year ago

Yeah, the laptop is in reserve mode, as in it's a spare that I can use if I need it. What will likely happen though is I'll find someone to donate the laptop to, and when that times comes I'll buy the hinge kit because I wouldn't wish this annoyance upon anyone.

The hinge issue is egregiously bad, and I don't know how Framework could even ship these laptops in the first place without first addressing it.

simfree · a year ago

The parts are nowhere near as inexpensive as a popular ThinkPad model, and the quality issues (rare UEFI updates compared to the competition, poor speakers that rattle, weak hinges, etc) are notable.

I had to buy a friends Framework 13 to get parts to keep mine going, as spending $240 for just the top and bottom case and plastic screen bezel seemed excessive.

More users have put their Framework 13's on a shelf to languish than I expected. The alternatives all seem better polished.

andreareina · a year ago

The way I see the modular ports story is that the use-case is less being able to switch them, more getting the ports you want. I've got a usb c on either side, which I don't have with my work ThinkPad. I still have a usb a yubikey, so I can make sure to have that port. etc

Agreed on the battery unfortunately, on my first gen 13" it's just mediocre.

dustincoates · a year ago

Agree on the modular port reasoning. My most commonly used non-charging port is the micro SD card, which I imagine is rare.

Sammi · a year ago

Yeah most people don't have a lot of things connected to their laptop, or else they more likely would have bought a desktop. But the things that different people have connected to their laptop is often quite different from each other.

So most people don't need a lot of ports, they just might need different ports.

throwaway519 · a year ago

Instead of contributing to more electronic waste and as an economic purchase, I...

use used ThinkPads.

Advantages:

Zero new electronic waste created.

Several 'new' machines are cheaper than a Framework.

Small upgrades plentiful and cheap. A major upgrade of a'new' machine still cheaper and more environmentally friendly than a Framework.

Better battery life, keyboard, ergonomic design, ports, hinges LOL, etc.

Try one today: ebay.com

_dp9d · a year ago

I do exactly the same with Apple laptops. Just replaced a 2015 MBP (that I bought used in 2019) with a 2021 MBA. Before that I had a 2011 MBA. New one is 16GB/2TB and was $700. It’s the fastest computer i have ever used by a wide margin - editing tens of thousands of raw files in Lightroom, editing 4K footage (which previous machines could not even do). I sold the old MBP for $200, so I’m spending around $500 every 4-5 years and getting thousands of hours of use.

commandersaki · a year ago

Nice, you did the same as me, which is skip the whole butterfly era of Apple laptops. Those were dark days for the company.

znpy · a year ago

Used ThinkPads used to be my way to go without even thinking about it but nowadays i don't think it's worth it anymore.

Many laptops i'm interested in come with soldered ram, meaning i can only buy something that's old and will stay old.

A lot of X280 and X13 come with 8gb or 16ram, which is truly a shame. I had 16gb ram in my X220 in 2014, ten/eleven years ago.

A lot of interesting ThinkPad models now come with a fixed keyboard i cannot change. Being somebody that likes us-ansi keyboard but that does not live in the US this means most eBay offers are not appealing to me.

Last ThinkPad i bought (X270) i just replaced the keyboard and ram (8->16gb). I cannot do that anymore with most models.

My X270 (for private use) it's getting old and I'm considering going for a brand-new laptop this time.

I have doubts between a new ThinkPad or a Framework. If Framework had an option to get trackpoint/ultranav that would be a no brainer.

I'm seriously torn on this. I'll probably go with a Framework 13 though.

I keep my laptop for many years each time so the idea of having the possibility to bump a laptop to up to 96gb ram (2 x 48gb ddr5) in some years is truly appealing.

magic_smoke_ee · a year ago

I use a T480 (bought new a lot time ago) moderately-capable gaming PC (lol):

- 3 extended, swappable batteries + third-party external battery charger (also has an internal battery T490 lacks)

- 32 GiB RAM

- i7-8650U

- 2 TiB SSD

- Retrofit/modded magnesium top case

- I pre-acquired replacement parts like fans, hinges, backlit keyboards, and case screws

- Works with Windows 11 + Razer Core X TB3 with an RTX 3070 Ti eGPU

Needs a couple of utilities to max out CPU TDP to 25W.

commandersaki · a year ago

It's usually the display resolution that kills it for me.

mongol · a year ago

ThinkPads often come up in these discussions but does not the same apply for example for business versions of Dell laptops? Such as Latitude and Precision. I kept one alive for almost ten years, occasionally replacing parts with secondhand parts. It still works perfectly but I have it as a spare now.

jtwaleson · a year ago

ThinkPads are timeless square black boxes with a red trackpoint. Having the same design since 1992 definitely makes them iconic, and this probably helped in creating a large fanbase. Realistically you might get the same mileage with a Dell, but to fans, it feels different.

ic_fly2 · a year ago

Have used dell business laptops for many years now (Vostro 13 and friends)

Used to be amazing, first one lasted a very long time (8years), my third one is currently giving up the ghost. And while Linux used to work great on them the uefi bios is so locked down that I couldn’t run it on the one i currently own.

On a related note, I’m out shopping for a new laptop and am considering a framework…

magic_smoke_ee · a year ago

Has a milspec drop rating and some can survive liquid spills with integrated keyboard drain holes.

Gigachad · a year ago

Similarly I bought a MacBook. It’s not as repairable. But it also hasn’t broken within 3 years usage and I didn’t have to upgrade the hinges and speaker right out of the box.

My 2012 MacBook Air also still works perfectly fine other than being extremely outdated.

lytedev · a year ago

I ordered my AMD one late in 2023 and love it.

It's not perfect as battery life compared to the Apple Silicon MacBooks is simply not a competition, but everywhere else it's close enough for me.

Being able to upgrade the screen already was a huge "yes, thank you" as instead of needing to buy an entirely new machines for a particular upgrade I was able to quite simply swap in the new part, which is what I'm used to on the desktop hardware side of things. It's awesome! The community and Linux support is also very cool and I'm excited about a possible RISC-V board to pop in and the overall tinkering possibilities.

That said, if you just need a personal computer, it's hard to recommend in the most general sense I think. But for businesses I can see it being a no-brainer.

OuterVale · a year ago

I've had one for about two years now. It has lived up to my personal hype, and I think it'll last longer than alternatives (though that remains to be seen). I have had a few minor pain points, but I'd definitely buy one again.

I posted a review here: https://vale.rocks/posts/a-year-with-the-framework-laptop-13

Also, I haven't updated my review to reflect it, but my acid sweat has been damaging the chassis a bit. Not too dire, but certainly annoying.

https://community.frame.work/t/pitting-on-palmrest/51681

vaylian · a year ago

I bought mine in 2022 and I still use it as my main system. There is not much to complain about. As someone else said, the laptop tends to get warm and my impression is that this has happened more frequently in recent years. Linux support is great. I don't rely much on the battery, so that's not an issue for me personally.

I don't know how long this one will last me, but I will try to keep it alive with spare parts for as long as possible. Repairing things, especially if they are treasured things, feels good. There was no need for any repairs yet, but I expect it to happen eventually. Or maybe I just want to upgrade things at some point.

sandreas · a year ago

Some of my friends own Framework Notebooks and are pretty happy with it. I also did some testing and was convinced.

If my lenovo T480s had any unfixable problems, I would have bought one myself, but this thing just refuses to die ;)

If I could change anything, there are a few things, I would improve...

  - The speakers: i mainly use headphones, but these are pretty Bad. I'd love to See a partnership with ELAC[1] a german speaker specialist, with a more expensive paid opt in upgrade
  
  - Battery life: improved a lot in the latest models but repairable components eat battery, maybe lpcamm2 RAM would improve this

  - open source bootloader: like libreboot or oreboot
  
  - ECC RAM support: this is probably hard to do but would be really appreciated

  - support for audio jack headset remotes: some usb-c to audio Jack already support volume control via headset buttons on fedora
  
  - single handed lid opening: the weight and balance should allow to open the LiD single handed, this worked most of the time but sometimes it won't

Anyways, I'd still buy one (the AMD 14" model with better display) as soon as my thinkpad dies or is too slow for my purpose.

1: https://www.elac.com/

yobibyte · a year ago

Got mine (13th Intel Core Ultra Series 1) and very happy with it.

Re modular ports, I don't think they are super useful after you've selected your configuration, but being able to have a custom port selection is very nice.

I am using Arch, btw, and everything has been working well so far. I thought there were some drivers issue, but turned out it was due to my bootloader setup (https://yobibyte.github.io/kernel_update.html)