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Posted by u/simplecto 10 months ago
Has the market spoken? Time to pick up Golang and Rust?
So it's been a decade-long round-trip from IC to management to senior manager back to IC.

And in the time you see some skills develop while others atrophy. And some new skills appear on the market that I'm shallow in.

In this case that could be Golang and Rust. (Lets not talk about how I feel about the Javascript ecosystem)

But, man, it is hard to let go of the cozy warm and lazy blanket Django and the python ecosystem gives us, isn't it?

The irony here is that I'm incredibly productive in the Django stack, but relative to the many jobs out there -- it seems many Rust and Golang positions go unfilled.

So, what is a guy to do? Daddy has to eat, and I am mercenary at heart.

So here we are -- back on the learning curve and ramping up on Golang and Rust.

otikik · 10 months ago
One good thing about the Javascript ecosystem: if you don't like it, you only need to wait 6 months for it to have changed completely!
com2kid · 10 months ago
Ugh old joke but:

1. React is 11 years old. Even "modern" React with hooks and such is more than 5 years old.

2. Express has been the backend server for Node for over a decade and it hasn't had a breaking semver change in 7 or 8 years.

The front end bundler ecosystem has been a hot mess forever though.

Compare this to Android which somehow manages to break its build system ~every few hours~ at least once per year.

Fire-Dragon-DoL · 10 months ago
React is wildly different from 11 years ago, react router is wildly different and the way state is managed in react is still constantly changing
throwitaway1123 · 10 months ago
> The front end bundler ecosystem has been a hot mess forever though.

The bundler situation wasn't ideal for a few years, but I've been really happy with esbuild lately. It's incredibly fast, has zero dependencies (besides the Golang sys module which is a de facto part of Go's extended standard library), and is much easier to configure than Webpack. I even heard DHH praise esbuild on The Changelog podcast recently, and he's a notable anti-build evangelist.

bbor · 10 months ago
I love the joke, but tbf React and Next.js have shown some serious sticking power so far, and show no sign of slowing. Also, JavaScript is so 2022, TypeScript is mandatory now IMO!
tail_exchange · 10 months ago
Going from Python to Go was very easy for me, and I do feel much more productive. I don't want to work with Python ever again.

Rust is a beast though, I tried picking it up several times, but lose interest quickly. The language is interesting, but the learning curve is a problem.

adampwells · 10 months ago
My journey has been from JVM (Java, Scala, Kotlin) -> Go -> Rust, writing web backends, APIs, integrations etc.

I don't write 'clever' code, just sticking stuff into Postgres/PostGIS/Neo4J/Clickhouse, some basic business logic and math, returning JSON etc.

I have found Rust to be super-productive and a joy to use compared with Go. I don't use the complex parts of Rust; no messing with lifetimes, a little cloning and using Arc<> to share things across threads/tasks.

GitHub Copilot in Jetbrains RustRover is very effective at generating accurate Rust CRUD code, handler methods etc. I don't bother with an ORM because it is so fast to write the SQL queries. Having said that, Copilot sucks at anything even slightly complicated and you take a risk asking it to generate code you can't validate quickly.

The whole of Rust might be a beast, but I have had a very productive couple of years just using the 'boring' bits and it took a week or two for me to be more productive than in Go writing bog-standard web backend code.

juneyi · 10 months ago
> it took a week or two for me to be more productive than in Go writing bog-standard web backend code.

am i understanding that correctly? you started learning/writing rust and it took 2 weeks to be MORE productive? if so, i'm just in awe at your ability to pick it up so fast.

I'm an jr dev so it's understandable that it's going to take me a lot longer but damn, i've been at it for over a half a year and I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near more comfortable/productive than my previous languages. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. much respect.

krab · 10 months ago
Regarding Python+Django vs. Go, I have an opposite experience. Concurrency is handled much better in Go but that's about it. ORM, web framework, any library is generally worse. On top of that, I miss my exceptions.
kaamkiya · 10 months ago
This is exactly my experience. I would just add that I do still use Python, because all tools have their uses. I use it for small scripts, and nothing else. Just places where compilation doesn't really make sense.
jochem9 · 10 months ago
Same. Python has a certain elegance when writing it, but the lack of static typing, a nightmare for dependency management (recently had to do a change in Python and spend about 80% of my time getting the dev env en dependencies right) and runtime compilation (slow and you'll error in production) have put me firmly on the Go train.

I do want to do Rust in production too. I'm dreaming of moving data engineers to a staticly typed language (crazy to transform data with dynamic typing) and Rust with Polars seems like a great match. The learning curve is steep though.

bryanlarsen · 10 months ago
My advice would be to learn Rust only if you feel you would enjoy working in Rust and/or enjoy solving the types of problems that Rust is good at. I love working in Rust, but it's not for everybody and without intrinsic motivation you're probably going to bounce off of it.
gavmor · 10 months ago
That's my general attitude about programming, but the invisible hand supplies many bitter and uninterested software developers to meet the industry's demand.
bryanlarsen · 10 months ago
OTOH I know many that are not enthusiastic about programming but are massive assets to their company even though their job partially involves programming. Many of them make more than I do.

examples: SRE, devrel, management, front-end/design, support, sales support, ...

Most of these are pretty good Python or Javascript or sh programmers. None of them are good at C, C++, assembly or Rust.

sshine · 10 months ago
Rust is a very ungrateful language if you're not trying to solve Rust-like problems.

Go has the quality, like Python, of being passable even if you're indifferent.

Go is a "less spicy Java", and Java isn't even spicy.

(Also, I code Rust for a living, and I absolutely love it, but I understand why others might not.)

dematz · 10 months ago
very pedantic point: the programmer in your example is uninterested in programming, as they don't like enjoy learning software development, but not disinterested in programming, as they do have a financial interest in software development
bbor · 10 months ago
Well I’d encourage you to follow your dreams/preferences and adjust your spending accordingly, especially now that the recent mini-shock reminded us that absurd salaries can’t always be the norm, but;

IEEE puts out an incredible report on this stuff every year: https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages-2024

The boring answer based on current demand is that the old languages are still dominant. Of the new languages Rust and Go are indeed at the top, but they’re still ~below C++/C, Java, and C#. OTOH, they are definitely near the top of growing languages, which is probably where your sense of them being “chosen” comes from; if you’re cynically trying to maximize long term career earnings, IMO either would be worth some investment.

The elephant in the room is, as you briefly mentioned, Python and its relation to the AI boom. There’s lots of fantastic shovels being made in other languages (eg llama-cpp), but the huge majority of new libraries are written with python APIs in mind (eg VLLM, Langchain, BentoML, and ofc the classics like PyTorch/Keras, SciKit, and numpy/pandas). Again, speaking cynically, I think there’s a lot of money flying around the python space right now.

Finally, I think it’s worth mentioning my take on the old refrain: languages aren’t really that different so don’t stress about it, but it can be worth it to invest in new paradigms/spaces/application types. It sounds like you’re not a fan of webdev, but instead of hyper focusing on picking a language, maybe consider picking new spaces to explore! I mentioned LLM shovels (aka quantizers, inference platforms) above, but there’s also some other booming spaces such as CRDTs/LocalFirst and spatial computing, to name my two faves.

Best of luck! Exciting time to be a member of the puzzle-solving class :)

runjake · 10 months ago
Anecdotal, but I spent 4 hours learning Go and then started on a fairly large non-trivial project later that day.

That kinda sold me on Go.

conor- · 10 months ago
If you roughly understand *nix and can think about things in terms of the unix philosophy it takes no time at all to grok Go.

It's basically C if it were repackaged for writing http-aware services.

OptionOfT · 10 months ago
In my spare time I started to learn Rust, and it has been great for me. While I think the language is great for many things, the largest problem is the learning curve.

So that means it's very hard to introduce in a company where the focus is on getting code out there as cheap as possible. Especially when the majority of work is done by contractors which in general aren't hired to learn new stuff, but more to execute work with existing skills.

Personally, once I became proficient enough in Rust my way of programming changed, and this actually became an issue when having to write other languages. Learning to write Rust actually increased my cognitive load when writing other languages, as I am constantly worried about not having my safety net.

perrygeo · 10 months ago
> very hard to introduce in a company

My experience as well. The lack of experienced Rust developers on staff, plus the need for build systems that compile to all target architectures, represents a real cost. That often doesn't surpass the benefits. Cheaper overall to just run the same old interpreted Python code, even if it's slower and uses more resources.

ebiester · 10 months ago
You have management experience. Your competitive advantage isn't your stack: it's your ability to understand context. There will be plenty of jobs in anything in the top 10: apply to all of them and if you get a bite, learn enough of that language to pass basic problems.
Eumenes · 10 months ago
This is easy to verify: go to Indeed.com and see how many Rust vs Django vs Golang jobs are posted. Do the same on LinkedIn or Stack Overflow jobs. Django + React with solid SQL skills is the best most marketable skillset in the US. Rust is out there but its mostly small startups ... growing companies shouldn't pick stacks that aren't popular if they want to hire alot of devs.
randomdata · 10 months ago
I tired the same with CEO vs software developer and found far fewer CEO positions. Maybe you should give up on software entirely and just work with CEOs?
Eumenes · 10 months ago
Its nothing personal homie. There aren't many Rust jobs. By all means learn whatever you want, but if your goal is a job, your time is best spent learning Python/JS.