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Posted by u/lukehollis 10 months ago
Show HN: I 3D scanned the tunnels inside the Maya Pyramid Temples at Copanmused.com/guided/158/temp...
With these 3d captures, you can explore the 4km tunnel system that archaeologists created inside the temples at Copan that are closed to the public. The tunnels are often flooded by hurricanes and damaged by other natural forces--and collapsed on me and my Matterport scanner more than once--so this is a permanent record of how they appeared in 2022-23.

Unlike Egyptian pyramids, the Maya built their temples layer by layer outward, so to understand them, researchers tunneled into the structures to understand the earlier phases of construction. I arranged the guided versions of the virtual tours in a rough chronology, moving from the highest to the lowest and oldest areas: the hieroglyphic stairway composing the largest Maya inscription anywhere, the Rosalila temple that was buried fully intact, and finally the tomb of the Founder of the city, Yax Kʼukʼ Moʼ.

I've been working to build on top of the Matterport SDK with Three.js--and then reusing the data in Unreal for a desktop experience or rendering for film (coming soon to PBS).

Blog about process: https://blog.mused.com/what-lies-beneath-digitally-recording...

Major thanks to the Matterport team for providing support with data alignment and merging tunnels while I was living in the village near site.

gerdesj · 10 months ago
Superb!

I expect whoever coated the remains with that red cinnabar stuff died rather early, probably with tooth and hair loss and severe mental issues. Perhaps this fate was expected but given that "mad hatters" were a thing until fairly recently, people can be a bit strange when it comes to dealing with poisons.

The guide notes point out that only the most sacred rituals involved this red mercurial stuff. I'm not surprised. It might be rare but rarer still will be people willing to deploy it unless that fate is considered a good way to go.

That tour is a remarkable use of the technology.

lukehollis · 10 months ago
It's something we have to be careful of while working on site! We're really careful around the rooms that have mercury in them--there are few that I didn't put in the guide also.

I was wondering about this too: they've found high levels of mercury in the water supply at Maya cities and believe now it contributed to the eventual collapse: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/mercury-and-algal-bl...

yard2010 · 10 months ago
> “The drinking and cooking water for the Tikal rulers and their elite entourage almost certainly came from the Palace and Temple Reservoirs,” wrote Lentz and his colleagues. “As a result, the leading families of Tikal likely were fed foods laced with mercury at every meal.”

This makes me think: what if today's rulers are being poisoned by something making them act like idiots?

pradn · 10 months ago
Advanced civilizations get good at using unusual materials like lead and mercury. Some of these come with unforeseen consequences. Plastic and oil are the two substances most like these for us in present day.
gerdesj · 10 months ago
I suspect that that stuff is far more contextually important than it might seem at first, despite it being noted as designated only for the most important rituals.

It's ever so hard to try and get inside the minds of people from long ago. I think it is fair to assume that we think in a compatible way with these people and if we can glean enough clues we can reasonably draw conclusions.

It might be informative to look for clues as to what the people who had to deploy this stuff actually thought about it. The amazing carvings, catacombs and so on tell a lot about the Maya people and it seems that they are well interpreted but I don't think that this red poison is particularly well interpreted. I think there is a lot more to be learned.

The archaeology there is absolutely mind blowing. Thank you to everyone involved. Your work is phenomenal.

jofla_net · 10 months ago
This is great use of the technology. There should be scans of all our national monuments, world wonders, etc. So much better a use for the tech than just Redfin.
volk45 · 10 months ago
Popping my comment cherry here!

I’m a 3D artist that is currently encountering staunch resistance of generating 3D models from drone captured photogrammetry of historically protected sites in Pennsylvania, USA.

I’ve had resistance from the state and county level in pursuing take off and landing permission at historical sites. Communicating my intentions of digital historic preservation with photogrammetry has been a difficult “sell”.

I’m a licensed commercial remote pilot - however I need property owner permission to take off and land. Many sites are in state/county owned property in my area.

seabass-labrax · 10 months ago
Have you looked to see whether there is a local archaeology or social history society in your area that you could join? They will have individuals involved who are already used to dealing with property owners to arrange research projects, and you might be able to accompany them on the trips they organize. For reference, the archaeological society in my region serves around 400 square miles and typically organizes a low two-digit number of digs every year. There are also some other societies in the same region who focus on preserving and documenting recent history where excavation isn't required.

Another idea: if you don't already have any formal education in history, you could study for some qualifications in the subject. It would probably do much to reassure landowners that you are not going to harm the sites in any way (although I struggle to think of a way you could do so with a UAV!) In any case, good luck; I'd love to see the models!

nosianu · 10 months ago
> digital historic preservation

When I hear "digital" I don't exactly associate long-term preservation with it. Do you also have a strategy for the "digital preservation" part? Websites don't live long. Storage media don't last long either.

Should such a program be made together with a partner that has a strategy for long-term (outlook of centuries) storage of digital content? Because otherwise I don't see the "preservation" aspect. The monuments will likely survive all the digitized data created from them, easily.

It's not just the data, but also ways to use it. Imagine this was done twenty years ago and it was all saved as Adobe Flash media.

I think preserving the digital media plus ensure that it will still be usable (hardware and digital format) is a monumental effort, in comparison creating the digital representation is not the hard part.

divbzero · 10 months ago
I used to live in Pennsylvania across the street from a colonial era house and just a few miles from a national historic site. I love your idea of digital historic preservation but totally understand the skepticism and reluctance of those entrusted with protecting the sites.

Is there a way you could partner with the custodians of a historic site so they become part of the digital preservation effort? Maybe offer a way to embed the 3D model on an official webpage of the historic site? Getting the custodians onboard could smooth the process of getting the required permissions.

lukehollis · 10 months ago
Hey I'm really sorry! It's really hard. My photo permissions at Giza took two years to secure. My only advice is to keep showing up in person and hang in there--I feel for you!
revscat · 10 months ago
> staunch resistance

Why?

qingcharles · 10 months ago
What's the punishment for violating this? Is it civil? e.g. a fine? If so, can we just crowdfund all the fines you'd get and pay them all off for you?
lukehollis · 10 months ago
100%! Eventually, one way or another, I think they'll be scanned every year to study the environmental effects of tourism and compare over time.
programd · 10 months ago
I'm glad to hear you're working on getting an Unreal environment for these scans. I find the movement in the web version to be incredibly clunky. This really needs to have a game like environment to do it justice.

In general we clearly have the technology to capture 4K-8K environments and turn them into very realistic virtual worlds. Is anybody even doing such work? For example capturing a neighborhood in San Francisco (or any city) as it looks in 2024 for historical reference? Seems like that should be a thing.

I've seen high quality environmental scans, even way back in the Silicon Graphics days when they showed an amazing scan of the Sistine Chapel. But it seems to me all such scans wind up in some proprietary player format which was designed by somebody who never played a decent open world game like Fallout 4, Cyberpunk, Battlefield, Red Dead Redemption. I have yet to see a museum environmental scan which gets anywhere near the immersive quality of those games. This is not so much a criticism of such work - it's awsome! - but maybe more of a call to arms for game people to help out the scholars.

lukehollis · 10 months ago
You can download or test the Unreal version pixel streaming here: https://mused.com/netherworld-ancient-egyptian-afterlife-sim...

Or here's the trailer for the project in Unreal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlNgpG9X7mc

I have a lot of work keeping up with games, it's true--games are expensive to build and aiming at photorealism art style continually looks dated quickly while stylized graphics, less so. I'm trying to fundraise to build this game currently, but it's a tough sell. Educational games don't do well on Steam, so right now, I'm just distributing through my website as I build. The small income this provides helps me contribute back to the modern Egyptian Egyptologists that are excavating and documenting their own culture though.

The latest Game Science title, Black Myth Wukong, does an awesome job with 3d captures of Chinese monuments and bringing the mythology and history to life.

tmilard · 10 months ago
lukehollis, it's true 3D gales are so long-and-didfucult to build. Maybe you get in xontact with me : I'm testing a tool that generate 3D Orlds easilly and fast. Mytoo is called free-visit thierry.milard@gmail.com

https://free-visit.net

namibj · 10 months ago
I was working towards that aiming at the medieval city of Rothenburg o.d.T. in Germany.

Unfortunately it's a lot of code writing to support rolling shutter cameras strapped to multicopters, where you capture video with short enough exposure to prevent blur. The 3D recovery has to respect the fact that the rows of the image are taken from different positions and angles, causing this up infiltrate basically the entire pipeline.

And global shutter cameras are barely accessible.

If there's some group with the man power and funding to actually pull this off, please get in touch, I would like to pick back up!

seanw444 · 10 months ago
cynicalpeace · 10 months ago
This reminds me of a recent Lex Fridman podcast with an expert in ancient American civilizations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzzE7GOvYz8
mmh0000 · 10 months ago
I don't know which is cooler. The 3D scan itself or the 3D map in the browser.

This is amazing. Thank you for sharing.

lukehollis · 10 months ago
Thanks for visiting! It was so many tunnels.. I feel bad that I don't build faster sometimes, but this took awhile.
iwontberude · 10 months ago
Get used to slowing down, it’s inevitable and you shouldn’t hold yourself to an unreasonable standard. Biology’s first principles make this clear.
farhaven · 10 months ago
This is very cool!

Can you share the technical background you've used for creating the 3D reconstruction? Like software packages, or algorithms used.

Are we looking at the result of packages like OpenSfM here, or COLMAP?

lukehollis · 10 months ago
Onsite I used the Matterport capture app and Matterport Pro 2 and BLK 360. For the web version linked here, I built on top of the Matterport SDK with Three.js https://matterport.github.io/showcase-sdk/sdkbundle_home.htm...

So in the virtual tour, you're seeing 360 imagery from the cameras and a lower resolution version of the 3d capture data, optimized for web. The lower res mesh from the scanner is transparent in first-person view mode so users get cursor effects on top of the 360 image.

For film, PBS sent out a documentary crew, and they wanted me to render some footage of the full tunnel system, so I exported the e57 pointcloud data from Matterport and rendered the clips they needed in Unreal. It should be coming out soon with "In the Americas."

Deleted Comment

JSoet · 10 months ago
Fantastic work! Just a small suggestion, I didn't realize that you could free explore the entire area until coming back and reading the comments on this site, I realized you could look around and there was one point in the guides tour where it mentioned you can explore but at least for me I didn't realize you could explore everywhere (especially the tunnels afterwards)

Maybe it's just that I'm on mobile, and when I went back I then saw the "free explore" button on the top... But maybe would be nice to add a couple prompts like you have at that one point which say something like "feel free to explore around the tunnels and then click next when you're ready to continue" or something (also for the ball court)...

lukehollis · 10 months ago
Thanks for letting me know! That makes good sense, and I did this in other tours. I'll see what I can do.
voodooEntity · 10 months ago
The fact that people carved this tunnels with simple tools and their bare hands into the underground is so freaking amazing i cant find better words for it

Edit: also very nice tool :)!

AStonesThrow · 10 months ago
> The fact that people carved this tunnels with simple tools and their bare hands

I'm confused, mate: why and how would 21st-century professional archaeologists avoid using modern powered tools and techniques? That's absurd, dangerous, and not cost-effective.

mxmilkiib · 10 months ago
I think you misunderstood that comment a bit