Huh, I thought engineers' pay scale would be a lot higher than program managers, business analysts, administrators, consultants and the like. It isn't. At all.
Developer layoffs are always projected as huge savings in expenditure. It probably gives the impression that developers' pay is higher compared to other employees.
That isn't true in at least two other industries: Finance and sports.
At investment banks, it's quite possible for a star trader or I-banker to be paid more than the CEO.
An NFL head coach is almost certainly paid less than the starting QB, and possibly other positions. The general manager is paid far less than many players.
Upper management yes but level for level engineers are paid more than biz roles at most other tech companies, FAANG. The only other people who possibly make more is sales (performance based)
> Why in the name of all that is unholy would you ever think that?
Seen it many times where engineers are making more than their managers. I had jobs where there was no real difference between my pay and my direct manager's.
There were fewer programmers for each programmer's role than managers for each manager's. Not sure if it still applies though.
I don’t think I saw anywhere in the article about Msft pay for program managers and the other positions you mention. Curious about these numbers, can u share?
It is possible that programmers are taking less money than their worth due to the fact that our jobs are basically fun, but that’s an exploitation rather than a feature.
$126k base is certainly livable in the Seattle area, though may be difficult to get ahead (ie: save for a house). Pretty comparable to entry level Amazon SDE 1 pay (at least years ago)
Oh wow! I got $37k in 1999 (~$69k 2024 according to BLS) in the DC area, for a Software Engineering job. I love to hear that grads now get rewarded w/ $125k fresh out.
(The level number starting so high is I'd guess due to an homogenous pay structure, so some non-engineering, junior HR say, roles lower paid (<L59) than where engineering happens to start.)
I think your layers of hell are very skewed by recent human history and may need a bit of a healthy reality check. In almost all of human existence, working at Microsoft or Oracle and sitting in a cushy chair coding and being paid ungodly amounts of money would be considered eternal paradise.
Seems a little low compared to the numbers I've seen reported, which makes sense. The promoted numbers are actually the most shocking, they must lose a lot of people
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The people in charge of pay and hiring will never, ever, ever set things up such that they're considered less important or are paid less.
At investment banks, it's quite possible for a star trader or I-banker to be paid more than the CEO.
An NFL head coach is almost certainly paid less than the starting QB, and possibly other positions. The general manager is paid far less than many players.
HR and accounting get paid less than engineers in every country on earth
Seen it many times where engineers are making more than their managers. I had jobs where there was no real difference between my pay and my direct manager's.
There were fewer programmers for each programmer's role than managers for each manager's. Not sure if it still applies though.
Part of your "pay package" is that you get to be purely creative, making machines that do things out of literal thin air.
None of those other people get to do that.
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Levels.fyi does a pretty good job at this kind of context at least for the big companies.
(The level number starting so high is I'd guess due to an homogenous pay structure, so some non-engineering, junior HR say, roles lower paid (<L59) than where engineering happens to start.)
The more these companies consolidate. The less competition there is. Thus can get away with terrible pay.
I don’t know why anybody would work at the second layer of hell known as Microsoft. Third layer of hell is probably Dell or Oracle.
“You are your ancestors’ wildest dreams.”
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It's inverted...