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Posted by u/thornjm a year ago
Tell HN: your next idea should focus on aged care
I’m a nobody in a medicine role but with a previous career in engineering.

I’ve just had a poorly thought out mild epiphany realizing what’s been staring me (and I’m sure everyone else) in the face: There is a huge burden of simple care tasks assisting people with transferring, mobility, dressing, showering, feeding, memory, medications etc.

Individually: The carer role is hard, physical, foul, violent, confronting, and worst of all 24/7.

Systemically: Half of the health system is clogged full of people admitted for social / care issues rather than medical issues. The population is aging and people are living longer with more severe deficits. There is a huge volume of exploited laborers keeping the system afloat.

It’s almost certainly a technical impossibility to solve a fraction of these problems and a large proportion of them likely need socially acceptable and safe human-robot interactions. However, a brilliant / affordable solution to getting grandpa out of bed or wiping his butt or engaging his mind could dramatically improve care timeliness, quality, safety, frequency, etc. and revolutionize parts of industries.

If you’re an entrepreneur looking for ripe territory consider literally any problem in aged / disability / nursing care.

TL;DR less hype / investment in self driving cars and AI that can solve esoteric BAR exams and more focus on helping grandpa safely stand and walk to the bathroom.

</rant>

binary132 · a year ago
The reality of elder care is that (especially) infirm old folks really need a lot of hard, difficult, unpleasant care that our economic system has made basically impossible for their children and extended families to perform, as would have probably been done in the past. This requirement isn’t going to go away. There will be no cheap, safe, efficient butt-wiping robot, and unmotivated, uninvolved third parties are going to keep doing lousy jobs and getting old folks hurt. Technology is not going to make much of a dent in this one.
octopoc · a year ago
This is true for most cases. However in my family we have special circumstances: because my grandfather is a veteran, my father is paid to take care of him. It is an absolutely phenomenal experience for our family and has brought us all together. If we could enable this again for everyone that would be good for everyone in terms of mental health.
binary132 · a year ago
I think it would be great if states offered support to people who were willing to be caregivers to their elders and children. These are essential roles that cannot really be replaced.
antiatheist · a year ago
This is available to anyone in Australia, although ~$500-600 a week isn't enough to support the carer and the one they care for in most personal circumstances. https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/carer-payment
hiAndrewQuinn · a year ago
Perhaps I'm missing something here. Why wouldn't an elderly care home invest in such a robot, considering this is one of the most common and time consuming tasks their orderlies need to perform on a daily basis? It seems like it would free up a lot of bandwidth to take in yet more elderly folks, which would be more profit to the care home.
malfist · a year ago
> Technology is not going to make much of a dent in this one.

I'm sure people said the same thing many times before. Agriculture is probably a good example of it, even if you ignore anything before modern times. Do you think after we developed tractors that we would have went on to make automated tractors that run by GPS and can plant, weed and harvest?

Technology can, and does, solve hard problems.

ensocode · a year ago
This, on the other hand also younger people are getting old. Future old people might be much more tech-averse
RecycledEle · a year ago
The butt wiping robot may be called a bidet combined with air drying.
nopmat · a year ago
Or have a self-cleaning, self-sanitized shower van with lifts and adaptive equipment make the rounds like an ice-cream truck.
shrimp_emoji · a year ago
> care that our economic system has made basically impossible for their children and extended families to perform

I don't wanna take care of my parents; I blame society.

I don't wanna have kids; I blame society.

We really can't keep letting society get away with all this.

llamaimperative · a year ago
This is just a snarky way of saying “incentives drive behavior” which, of course, is actually true and when incentives yield bad outcomes we should interrogate the system that produces them.
linotype · a year ago
Even if I did want to have kids, I wouldn’t have them to take care of me in old age. What if they move to Japan? Should I have them move back to the US to take care of me?

Nah, we should build a society that can and does take care of its elderly.

binary132 · a year ago
The reality is that right now, most people need to work full-time-plus just to get by.

My wife and I have a bunch of kids. We are also the only ones who will be meaningfully sorting out care for our parents. I am fortunate to be able to provide enough support to make it work. I also don’t feel confident that when we’re also responsible for caring for all four of our parents, there’s going to be enough of our time and energy to manage it along with my work, especially if there are more little ones or medical issues at that time. It’s important to be realistic.

And again, I’m an outlier. Most people have fewer resources to devote to it.

bzmrgonz · a year ago
Establish UBI and then we can blame families for not wanting to care for their elders, but until capitalism demands dual-income to sustain the nuclear family... we can't unfold that blame blanket you're proposing.
silverquiet · a year ago
I can’t have kids; I’m single.
bigbassroller · a year ago
Just brand a bidit with a lifting mechanisms
k310 · a year ago
Agree. Simple stuff that people really need is missing. I mean really simple. I can't read product labels even with serious myopia and a magnifying lens. Only Trader Joe's makes readable shelf signage. Use-by dates take 30 seconds to even find. And there are tons more things. I made a list ...

It's getting longer. Thanks for posting this.

gumby · a year ago
A program that parses an arbitrary shelf label and then displays a large-print normalized representation (like the nutrition label) would be valuable.
fy20 · a year ago
This is idea behind GS1 Digital Link [0], basically QR codes to replace barcodes. The QR code will contain a URL which when scanned provides product information to the consumer.

The format of the URL is defined by the standard, so it can contain the EAN for the POS as well as additional data such as expiry date. Almost all 'barcode' scanners in use today can read QR codes so it just needs a software change on the POS.

https://digital-link.com/gs1-digital-link/

ChrisGranger · a year ago
Like Firefox's Reader View for real life.
whynotmaybe · a year ago
The Yuka app can scan the barcode and shows whether the food or cosmetic you scanned is good for you or not.

https://yuka.io/en/

arnonejoe · a year ago
that is an awesome idea.
ed · a year ago
iOS has a built-in app called “magnifier” which might be more handy than a lens!
k310 · a year ago
Many product labels and prices are situated very high and very low. I end up taking a photo to capture the info.

I also like to visit thrift stores, and being practical, I snap photos of weird and wonderful items rather than buying them.

sillysaurusx · a year ago
What else is on the list? That's interesting.
k310 · a year ago
I can share some really important things I’d like to see for seniors. I am leaving out some innovative ideas that go beyond these, because “first things first”.

Here are some.

Anything to help low vision (and that’s a giant problem) One periodical I get has some white text on a bright yellow background. Solution: I wrote them. Waiting …

Finding things, whether in the home or at local stores (whose inventory varies, as in “Stuff comes and goes at Trader Joe’s”) or even online (which is tough for many people since online stuff is largely bogus scams bolstered by SEO) Home and food and medicine inventory (data to be private and not fed to sellers, thank you.)

Exoskeletons. This technology is already old. What’s the hang-up? Other mobility?

Backpacks that have gyroscopes built in to stabilize people.

Fall mitigation. TBD

Finding real help nearby, trusted people, not “pay to get referrals” right now, as in “I’m in a jam”. Includes tech advice. And spares to loan.

Filtering email and websites for scams and malware.

Any sane noncommercial alternative to “social media”. (That’s a larger issue but very important in my mind, which is free of them)

That opens the matter of getting important, pertinent, personal and timely news and situational awareness rather than noise. (See above)

Creating secure family communications to bust AI-generated phony ransom calls (and more)

Simple robotics, of the “bring your slippers and reading glasses” sort. Cellphone, too. Seems it’s always charging when I need it.

Oh, and since I’m in the foothills, places to go when there’s an evacuation, power is out, and cool places to hang out.

I think these address major unmet needs. I would hate to see them enshittified.

Other ideas will improve quality of life, but first things first.

k310 · a year ago
Shortly, I just rode out a heat wave. Glad to share.

I'm 75 and very in tune with needs!

SkyPuncher · a year ago
I actually ran a health tech startup in this space within the past decade.

It’s basically a no go market. Patients don’t have the funds themselves. Those that do simply hire a dedicated, private staff.

Children don’t want to pay for it since they view it as there parent’s expense.

Everyone views it as a cost that the healthcare system should cover - even though there isn’t money for it.

hn_throwaway_99 · a year ago
Your response makes sense to me, but it also highlights why I've become so disillusioned with "tech" generally over the course of my 25 year career.

My optimism about tech used to be because I saw tech as solving humanities most pressing needs (even if it usually has unintended consequences like pollution, etc.) But now I see tech (most of the time, obviously I'm speaking in broad generalities) as not even bothering with pressing problems because you can make more money hijacking dopamine pathways to sell ads.

I mean, when I think of tech that would actually improve my life I think about things like a clothes-folding machine, not a program that writes mediocre poetry.

dingnuts · a year ago
> think of tech that would actually improve my life I think about things like a clothes-folding machine,

I think about this constantly, and it's a funny example because apparently the math involved for figuring out how to fold clothes is basically an unsolved problem. As I understand it the robotics -- also a very hard unsolved problem -- are the easy part, which should emphasize how horribly hard this problem is.

Several other things: 1) I recently saw a LinkedIn lunatic claim laundry was already automated, because laundry machines exist (way to out yourself as someone who never helps with laundry)

> mediocre poetry

2) I refuse to call language models "intelligence" until they can at least meaningfully contribute to the design of novel devices like the robots we are discussing. If it can't invent, it's not intelligent! Intelligent things are capable of novelty, not only regurgitating existing witnessed patterns.

lolinder · a year ago
> or wiping his butt

Slightly weird take: bidets have this field fully covered and the only thing stopping them from being widely used (especially in this domain!) is user resistance to an unfamiliar solution to a very personal problem.

We don't need new tech for this, we just need a marketing breakthrough.

makeset · a year ago
To be clear, the original "bidet" fixture as found in some older European bathrooms, a second toilet bowl to squat over and manually wash, is far from useful for anyone, let alone the elderly. If people are horrified to hear the word, that's probably what they are picturing. There's also the shower hose dog wash thing which is almost as bad. To avoid confusion, the toilet seat spray feature (which is great) is often termed "bidet seat" or "washlet".
hn_throwaway_99 · a year ago
> bidets have this field fully covered

No, they don't. This "let them use a bidet!" stuff is an asinine response that is literally the equivalent of "let them eat cake."

Elderly people who need someone to wipe for them are usually either completely physically immobile where they're not exactly strolling to the toilet in any case, or they're wearing diapers, or they're so mentally declined they basically forget what they're supposed to do.

Plus, as the owner of a bidet who uses it every time I take a poop, you still need to wipe. What, you're going to just drip dry in your underwear - gross! My bidet even comes with a drying fan but it's in no way sufficient, you still need to wipe.

carlosjobim · a year ago
So you have to sacrifice one of two people. Either the old who cannot take care of himself, or the caretaker who has to waste their life taking care of the old.
Duanemclemore · a year ago
Having worked in high end residential, I can tell ya the LAST person who's going to want to use a bidet is ironically also the hypothetical "grandpa" who's not rich enough to hire someone to wipe his a$$.
insane_dreamer · a year ago
Europeans have no problem using them
episteme · a year ago
I imagine you are allowed to say ass in this context :)
IncreasePosts · a year ago
You might be wiping their butt because they are wearing adult diapers, not because they can go on the toilet but not wipe.
asveikau · a year ago
User resistance only gets harder with older people. They will be set in their ways.
lolinder · a year ago
Yep, and that resistance will kill almost all attempts to design tech like this. Anyone who is interested in this space needs to look at what Kimberly-Clark did to make Depends a (more or less) accepted part of aging.
000ooo000 · a year ago
You've got it all wrong. Entrepreneurs aren't short on ideas; they're short on ideas that will make them rich. Why/Who's paying for a robot to wipe grandpa's butt when "there's a huge volume of exploited laborers keeping the system afloat"?
6510 · a year ago
You could advertise the robot then send and exploited laborer to do the robot job as a success story, could have robot operators in far away lands and for select elderly a robot suit would be sufficient.
warkdarrior · a year ago
Is that going to be cheaper than actual immigrant labor?
chillingeffect · a year ago
Yep. Spend an hour with an elderly person trying to do things like change a password, unsub from a mailing list, connect a Roku, look at a digital photo album, etc. Will blow your mind wide open. We basically need an entire tier of easy internet for the elderly.
defrost · a year ago
It's more than just a "tier of easy internet for the elderly" as that alone won't ease the suspicion that something might be going wrong.

There's demand for trusted verified handling of regular financial life interactions, bill paying, hiccups from cards being changed and regular direct debits needing resetting, etc.

Much like, Chubb (for example) remote monitor home security with liability should one of their employees start feeding "they're not home and they have valuables" infomation to thieves.

My own father was born in 1935 and he's still pretty sharp, handles his accounts etc but he still worries (quite rightly) about social engineering and scammers .. the very "ease" of something doesn't reassure, it's the fact that interactions have been double checked by a trusted party (me, I guess) that does the trick.

It's also an area that demands reputation, liability, and transparent auditing - conservatorships for the elderly, as for Britney Spears, are ripe with opportunities for graft and abuse.

toomuchtodo · a year ago
https://www.truelinkfinancial.com/

Found them here long ago (YC S13), used them with an alcoholic parent I was acting in a guardian capacity for.

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=truelink

blackbaze · a year ago
A private network? Separate from the internet? A dedicated device for said network
dghlsakjg · a year ago
Holy cow, yes.

I just spent an hour yesterday untangling my in-laws shared, paid, Spotify account.

What had transpired is that they needed to confirm FILs physical address. So they sent him a link to an old email address, but no notification in app. He, reasonably didn’t see it within the 1 week deadline. So they removed him from his own shared account. Once he was removed there was no way to confirm his address and self service to get himself back into his own paid service.

To get back on the account I had to find the very hidden “contact a real person” link buried very deep in useless help articles, and gated behind a bot that didn’t even get close to understanding the issue. Then, to verify identity he had us login via the app, not the website, create a playlist, make it private using a secondary menu and message him the name. Only then was he able to be added back onto the shared account. The shared account that he was paying for, mind you.

I have no idea how anyone who hasn’t seen the inside of a tech company is supposed to navigate these systems.

kjkjadksj · a year ago
We abstracted ourselves into this. Imagine how the spotify app would have been as an early 2000s website. Loads an informationally dense page in a fraction of bandwidth. User and password box probably immediately visible. Forgot username and forgot password button immediately visible. Customer support email and phone number probably there on the bottom of the page.

Somewhere in the years since we decided basic utility were unsightly.

CJefferson · a year ago
Honestly, I think for some of these types of things we probably need laws, providing minimal levels of support for paid services.

Yes, there are probably a whole bunch of paid services which simply can't function if they have to actually provide useful, easy-to-access support to their paying customers. However, I'm not sure it's a net benefit to let them exist.

pzo · a year ago
Wouldn’t tech illiteracy eventually die out? Millenials are good with tech and gen z even better. It’s probably still a good niche for the next 20 years. On the other hand poor fitness and mental wellbeing seems affects all age groups.
dghlsakjg · a year ago
Tech literacy seems to be dropping with newer generations.

I taught a basic after school coding class, and the first thing I had to teach was the concept of a file, a folder, saving and loading.

These are things that everyone I went to school with understood in primary school.

Apps have abstracted it all away, and now kids just go for the search bar.

kjkjadksj · a year ago
Gen z is more tech illiterate than you would think. I work with a few student interns in this cohort sometimes. “Copy and paste that into notepad and save it as a text file then email it to me” “uhhhh”

These kids grew up on the iphone or gsuite. They have little concept of a filesystem much less how the OS works. Its a black box. Teaching command line or writing scripts takes a lot of effort just to break out from their own wrong internal worldview of how a computer works. It’s kind of disappointing seeing what tech companies have done to dumbify this generation in terms of tech literacy.

asveikau · a year ago
I think normies (not hn reading outliers) in Gen Z and alpha may have regressed. Younger people come up in the era of devices and apps hiding the existence of a filesystem from you.
tcmart14 · a year ago
I think so. My only data point though is probably my grandpa. He is nearing 80 and as far as interfacing with consumer tech devices, he is just as proficient as me. The only thing I beat him on is, well, I am a software engineer, so I know how do a little bit more with the guts. I attribute it to, he worked for 'the telephone company' (AT&T) most of his life as a technician and in sales. So he for him, keeping up and learning how to work with new devices is a no brainier for him. My guess is that those of us who are younger, it'll be the same as him.

I think its more about, stuff iterates today to your much more experienced and maybe open to adapting to new iterations faster. Or like my grandfather, he work with lots of new tech continuously over his 30-40 year career. So adapting to new tech is just second nature.

lolinder · a year ago
Tech illiteracy will only die out if technology finally plateaus. The elderly were great with the technology that was popular when they were in their forties too, the problem is that technology didn't stand still from there.
Duanemclemore · a year ago
What constituted tech literacy 20 years ago won't get you very far today. I'm in my 40's and I see it - people my own age who ... like, they have used computers for 30 years. We were the original online generation, etc etc etc. But the number of things with family, friends, and coworkers - again my same age - which seem absolutely ridiculously simple for the terminal tech-tinkerer like myself but which trip them up is just shocking.

Tech literacy is a moving target.

nunez · a year ago
Not at all! People are increasing _consuming_ tech, not _understanding_ it.
CJefferson · a year ago
Companies just get better at being abusive.

I'm a professor in AI, I still wasted two days of my life disentangling a mess caused by a family member ending up with two amazon accounts attached to the same e-mail address.

Mayzie · a year ago
There have been and are attempts at addressing the usability gap of tech by the more tech illiterate over the years. Particularly, Linux projects such as Ordissimo[1], Eldy[2], and Endless OS[3]. I am sure there are plenty of other projects, as well (including Apple's new iPhone Assistive Access mode[4]. As sad as it may be, the market would probably be non-existent in a decade or two as newer generations enter aged care having already been somewhat familiar with computers and phone technology.

[1] https://www.ordissimo.com/en/why-ordissimo

[2] http://www.eldy.eu/

[3] https://www.endlessos.org/

[4] https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/assistive-access-iphon...

kjkjadksj · a year ago
I think the easy internet is the exact issue. We try and solve friction by abstraction that serves to misunderstand what is fundamentally happening with the computer, adding more confusion that could be avoided. All because we haven’t solves the onboarding problem, merely beat around the bush of it.
k310 · a year ago
Indeed, I saw some simplified computers over time but everything "behind" them got crazy complex. I did tech for a living and it's still infuriating at times.

Ex got passwords altered. My credit union got ransomwared. For mysterious reasons the "bank by touchtone" worked so I could pay my credit card, but I can't get balances and access via web or app. The point being that problems are wildly varied and changing, let alone basic stuff that Apple and others change every so often. I know how to get answers by web search, but it's tricky, and impossible for others. Worse, fraudulent sites get top SEO rank, pose as authorized support and get you to drop RAC apps on your device. First question she had was "What is this remote app?" Like, delete immediately and restart the phone. Apple does not ask you to do that.

So, I think that personal attention is often needed. To the extent that AI can replace some of the tedious lookup, fine.

Another thing I have noted over time is that in helping people, I often run through lots of menu items and settings that people are unaware of (and sometimes I am not aware of) and the same function doable in two different places.

Of course, they want me to explain what I did, but since a lot was just looking for trouble and finding settings, it's 10x faster just to do it than explain it, especially since the solution is likely one-shot or useful once every 3 years. And then everything changes.

Well, I'll stop here for now. I love that this matter is getting a thread here.

nasmorn · a year ago
When you can just open an applications menu and click every possibly interesting option you are already more proficient in the use of any software than 90% of its daily users. That is the only explanation why I can fix any office worker’s software problems while using a code editor and terminal for 95% of my workday
Ccecil · a year ago
Just went through this with my 80 year old father this week. He was attempting to switch his cell service. They kept telling him they sent him a verification code via text...problem is he does not text. He actually turns his phone off completely when he is not making a call. He had no idea how to check the message...nor did he understand that swiping down (android) would show the messages at the top...and the concept of "swipe to answer" was eluding him too...he kept tapping the answer button and getting mad that it wouldn't respond.

This is a person who spent half of his life driving trucks...after he retired he took a class called "overcoming computer phobia" which began quite literally with "this is the power button, this is the mouse". He refuses to get GPS in the car and does not use the internet at all. No email, no social media.

These people are out there and as they age they only get more confused by things that they do not understand. Customer service is getting more and more difficult to get in touch with a real person (even more rare for the agent to be fluent and coherent in the necessary language, it is frustrating to not understand the topic and not able to comprehend spoken instructions at the same time). Not totally sure what the fix here is since automated systems and outsourcing service seem to be where everything is headed. In the case described above my father drove to the local office and was told he needed to call the number. The person in the office claimed they could do nothing...

My county is over 35% retired people. Cost of living is way above what caregivers can afford (just in the last 5 years or so). Most businesses have "now hiring" signs. I am not sure who is going to be taking care of these people since it seems to be a growing population...and those who would be able to take care of them are leaving the area.

So yeah...I agree with the OP. This field is going to grow in the next few years...but as others have said it may drop off a bit after the boomers.

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bzmrgonz · a year ago
I think improvements to the electric-exo-skeleton contraption can keep the elderly mobile for an additional 10 years.. There comes a time when an elderly person cannot take a flight of 2 or 3 step stairs and that's when they stop moving, so if the exoskeleton can get them to the track or a flat area where they can walk, I think it can help tremendously. Additionally, I think those 2 circle zero gravity contraptions might help with circulation. As for the butt wiping, that's a tough one, but only because of the stigma associated with wearing anything on the sphincter, I can see a 12v electric sphincter dilating aparatus being very efficient in controlling bowel movement, but I don't see our childish society accepting them with a straight face.
Rinum · a year ago
Big barriers to entry: regulation, liability, and reimbursement/payment