I think this is often a case of people dealing with cognitive dissonance.
It's pretty easy to understand that in at least North America our livestock handling practices cause a huge amount of suffering to animals for the enjoyment of people. But most people are able to ignore / justify that with a "well, it's bad but you gotta eat".
When presented with a group of people who make the choice not to eat animals / contribute to that suffering it challenges that justification and makes people very uncomfortable and in some cases angry. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is to mock those people and write them off as some kind of sanctimonious kill joys
That's historically the least-persuasive argument for vegetarianism. The far greater threats are anthropogenic climate change, antibiotic resistance, accelerated pandemic evolution, land/water/air pollution, higher food prices, and less total available food.
The cognitive dissonance is very strong because people get violently defensive with their somatic lifestyle choices and will believe and do almost anything to extend them indefinitely. The only way out is leadership to tax, reform, and regulate excessively-subsidized meat agriculture that isn't good for public health.
If you successfully convince people to have vegetarian meals 1 times in a week.
You would make immeasurable more headway than mocking and guilt tripping people.
Campinas teaching people how to cook tasty and easy vegetarian dishes would go a long way.
But no, we will block the entrance to steak restaurant and call you names is the way to go...
I'm not trying to change peoples opinions by doing either of those things so I don't get the point of this comment as a reply to mine.
I also agree in a number of cases education is an important tool for making headway but I do also get that visible protest that confronts the issue you're tackling is also important.
(Edit: Nm, you probably meant "campaign". For a second there, I thought campinas were like "little camps" that people host to teach cooking... I was like where do they have those? I wanna check one out!)
In North America (which is the only area I'm even remotely qualified to speak on so will limit to that) it's entirely possible, and often healthier, to not have meat in your diet. The justification I'm talking about is about choosing personal enjoyment over animal welfare. It's easy to couch it in "you need to eat meat" like you've just done but vegetarians show that that's categorically not true in a many cases
How simple are people's palates if they think vegetarian food is lacking in pleasure? No surprise to hear it from someone with a French sounding name, of course. Add any kind of spice to their food and don't know what's hit them.
Italian and Indian food is where it's at. Is Indian food well known in the US? There's plenty in the UK but most generic "Indian" is mostly Punjabi in particular. It's not hard to find proper vegetarian Indian food if you look, though.
I assume most people who are "offended" by it are harbouring guilt. Usual story.
The US actually does have a lot of Indian restaurants (and ethnic and vegetarian places in general), especially near places with more population/diversity/Democrats (which all kinda go hand-in-hand here). Indian, Thai, Chinese and Japanese restaurants are in basically every strip mall (what we call a bunch of random small retail businesses sharing the same parking lot) and every downtown.
However, even then, you're usually stuck with the same few options everywhere you go. At Indian restaurants you usually do have a bit more variety (thank you Hindis), but it's still the same like 9-10 entries... your typical chana masala, palak/matar paneer, aloo gobhi, pakora, biryani, etc. And if you're vegan, it's either the chana or the daal if you want any protein at all.
At other ethnic places, it's typically more like 2-3 options if you're lucky: Some sort of mixed veggie tofu stir fry at the Chinese places, pad thai/kee mao without fish/oyster sauce at the Thai places, marinara/lasagna/eggplant at the Italian places, falafels at the Mediterranean places, etc. Even the specialist vegetarian/vegan places typically have very similar menus, usually fried comfort foods or various mock meats, with some sort of nutritional yeast & cashew sauce, topped with tofu, seitan or jackfruit.
Compare that to the dozens of options a regular person would have at any restaurant, and the hundreds of restaurants in any city. Even with all the spices in the world, there's only so much you can do with legumes, grains, nuts, and leaves. You really do lose out on a lot of variety. Meats, milks, and eggs have taste and textures all their own, produced by the different animal species of the world. Only recently have we been able to replicate some of their tastes and textures in the lab from veggie ingredients, but it seems like that fad has mostly passed (Beyond and Impossible aren't doing so well, and the smaller brands remain niche, and omnivore interest around them has mostly waned.)
I say that as someone who's been vegetarian and then vegan in the US for nearly 20 years. Yes, there's more to eat than most people think, but still way, WAY less than any omnivore or pescatarian would have access to. After all, they can eat all the same things too, but add whatever animal ingredients they want on top of it.
The situation might be a little better if you're a good cook and can make delicious meals at home, but even then, you're fundamentally limited to trying to dress up generally bland plants & legumes with fancy sauces. And many cookbooks don't really provide balanced meals (typically lacking in satiety or protein), especially when vegan.
Overall, it's just a lot of time, effort, and expense, and greatly limits your dining options and also your social options (eating out with friends, going over to their place, hosting them for dinner, etc.). Hasn't really been a big problem since it kinda ends up being self-selecting anyway (the vegetarianism has good overlap with people who also share my values, hobbies, love of the outdoors, etc.), but that's a regional cultural thing. In more conservative/traditional areas, it would be absolute social suicide. Food is huge in many cultures and subcultures, and disavowing 90% of what people eat is a good way to get yourself shunned and mocked.
The funny thing is when I did eat meat I ate things like offal, flavoursome cuts etc. When I look around though I see the vast majority of people are eating tasteless stuff like chicken breast etc. It's like children's food and just ticking off the "meat" category in their minds.
For those people it would be incredibly easy to go veggie. The lies the meat industry have told about soya etc don't help, though.
It sounds like it's definitely easier in the UK. I cook most of my food at home but it's always quite easy to find stuff that's 100% veggie and delicious. If you have to look harder that just makes it more fun. The veggie places tend to be good, whereas the meat places can range from good all the way down to complete dogshit.
Do any vegetarians/vegans on HN want to chime in with their opinions about meat substitutes like Impossible and Beyond?
Personally, I eat meat, but I don't take issue with people who don't, and I'm glad they have more and more options, many of which I enjoy myself. But I'm not a big fan of those substitutes. I'd rather have meat, or a more traditional vegetarian/vegan dish(even something like a black bean burger).
As a ~7 year vegan, I eat a fair number of substitutes. As others have said, I don't do it for my health or because I don't like the taste of meat.
That said, in line with the article, when I was in college, I had the Maddox "For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three" image blown up as a poster on my dorm door. I had a "PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals" t-shirt that I wore around. My aim was to upset the vegetarians, and I made fun of them whenever I saw a window. I can't speak for others' motivations, but the fact that there was a group of people living a lifestyle that I thought was borderline impossible cast inherent doubt and judgment on my own choices. Having to confront the fact that they might be right led to a lot of unresolved cognitive dissonance and anger.
If you'd have told me that ~20 years later I'd be vegan, married to another vegan, and raising a child on an entirely plant-based diet, I'd have laughed in your face.
Isn't it so often the case that those so staunchly "anti-gay" are, in fact, in the closet themselves? And those so in favour of censorship are likely the most debauched?
People who don't care don't care. You cared. So I think going veggie/vegan was inevitable, unless, perhaps, you were just a genuine asshole like Bourdain. Most people aren't assholes, though.
How's the kid doing? (Asking as a vegan of about 16 years, and my SO is vegetarian about as long. We don't have kids though.)
My understanding (possibly a decade or more out of date... been a while since I last did any real research on the topic) was that vegetarianism was well-tested and easily made healthy, but veganism is still kinda experimental in terms of its long-term effects, especially for newborns and young children. I think the uncertainties were especially focused on bone and teeth development & maintenance.
Have you noticed anything positive or negative? Do their check-ups come back OK?
I'm a huge fan. I became veggie because I don't like the process that creates a burger. But brother do I fucking love burgers. So anything that comes close to letting me eat the food I grew up with and love without the practices I don't is rad
Vegan 12 years, my second go around (I first went in the late 90s to early 2000s). My parents had to stop being vegetarian because I wouldn’t eat anything except butter, milk, potatoes, and beef, so you could say I have carnivorous impulses. I like stuff like Impossible. Good texture, identical as far as I can remember to what a fast food burger tastes like, holds up to the grill, and you can find it just about anywhere. In addition, it has made going out to eat virtually a non-issue.
It’s amazing to me that I can walk into just about any hole in the wall tavern around me and I can still get a decent burger and a beer with my friends. 15-20 years ago maybe once in a blue moon I’d find some place that had dried and tough Morningstar patty that tasted like burnt sawdust, but most of the time I’d be stuck with a shitty garden salad or fries, if not forgoing the depressing ordeal and just drinking my meal.
At home I prefer to make everything from scratch because it tastes better, is usually cheaper, and is healthier, plus I love trying new things all the time. Last weekend I made patties from beets, lentils, rice, onion, breadcrumbs, peanut butter, and a bit of fennel… so good. But I get lazy like everyone else, and usually like once a week I just want a big fucking greasy burger, and Impossible does the trick.
I also appreciate that better products has gotten more people to lessen branch out. I can think of a whole bunch of stereotypical “but bacon tho” veg haters amongst my friends and family that have decided for various reasons to reduce meat intake and have found these products and veg cuisine in general to be an enjoyable and eye opening experience… just like I did.
Impossible and Beyond burgers, sausages, and crumbles are fantastic. Total drop-in replacement for their flesh counterparts. Breaded nuggets are also indistinguishable. Oscar Mayer and Impossible just both introduced plant-based hot dogs that are uncanny.
One area still lacking is a plant-based alternative to lean meats like chicken. Simulate has a chicken ("chicken") breast, but I haven't tried it yet.
Daring Chicken is pretty good, IMO, for shredded chicken. Doesn't quite have the same visceral flesh tearing pleasure as real dead bird, but it's yummy enough on its own and something my partner and I both enjoy a lot.
I'm a huge fan of those substitutes, not because I eat them often, but because it means I can visit my Grandparents, and they can cook what they regularly do and just use the meat substitute product instead.
It also helps a lot when people change their diets, because you can keep some of your old recipes.
I'm curious what provokes this reaction. Many Indian vegetarian dishes were originally made to substitute Mughal dishes which used a lot of meat due to their origin in the steppes. I agree that there's a categorical difference between Impossible and Beyond style substitutes and, say, jackfruit but the inspiration comes from the same place. Tempeh, tofu, and seitan also originated as Buddhist ways to substitute meat eating and hit a similar flavor profile.
It's morally indefensible to create incurable bacteria or another pandemic, destroy antibiotics' effectiveness, and destabilize the climate balance of the only planet we have through the supply-causing action of buying and eating a fucking Big Mac.
Also, I suggest anyone who eats meat and has a functional sense of smell to take a trip to Greeley, CO.
I'm pretty close to vegetarian, and don't find a need to ever eat meat substitutes. Every Indian and Mediterranean restaurant will have a vegetarian option, and elsewhere you can get a salad.
They were novel at first but kinda sickening after a while (they're rather unhealthy and unbalanced). I much prefer whole-foods based meals, usually traditional Indian or Asian stuff, or a good breakfast tofu & potatoes scramble. And even among mock meats, there are a lot more interesting flavors & textures than the boring patties*.
However, Beyond/Impossible/Daiya (fake cheese) have been a lifesaver in one particular situation: Giving me something to eat at places that omnivores like to frequent (brewpubs, food trucks, pizza joints, etc.). It's a huge upgrade compared to the pitiful "leaves with vinegar" that they would've had before. The fake meats & cheeses allows otherwise boring restaurants offer a filling veggie option with minimal change to their menu and staffing.
---------
* If anyone wants to try other artificial/fake vegan stuff, I really like Daring shredded chicken, Gardein fish steaks, Beyond spicy sausages, Sol Cuisine nuggets, Just Egg slices, Violife smoked provolone, and Morning Star corn dogs.
None of them are particularly healthy though, and they're all pretty expensive. Not recommended if you want to optimize for value or health.
It's interesting that you call it "sickening" (not judging, I presume you mean it in the same way a long time vegetarian finds the smell of meat.) A lot of Indian vegetarian dishes were originally made to substitute meat in Mughal cuisine that was meat heavy because it originated in steppes cultures in Central Asia. Hence the use of cauliflower, jackfruit, and chickpeas. These days soya chunks (TVP) is frequently in use also to substitute things like kheema.
Though I agree there's a bit of a categorical difference in the way Beyond, Impossible, and some Gardein stuff mimics meat compared to, say, jackfruit.
I don't like them. If you stop eating meat for a while it's hard to imagine eating it again. Like, a piece of a dead animal? Really? Why would I want to eat something like that?
I still eat burgers. They taste better than the meat versions because they're made with vegetables.
What I find strange is that so few people mock Jews, Muslims for not eating pig or their kosher rules. Or, if someone is vegetarian because they are Hindu.
I think it's generally easier for people to understand and respect another religion than a science-based ethical framework. You tell them you do or don't do something because of a religion, they'll just nod and shut up. You tell them you don't do it because of environmental or animal reason X, Y, Z and they'll look at you like you're from another planet. At least if you have a health reason for it (cholestesterol, etc.) they can empathize and probably pity you as opposed to judge you.
I think most kids are raised with an understanding that many people they meet will have different religious beliefs and that they can't be rude about it. Comparatively, only what, maybe 10% of the world is vegetarian, and of those, maybe 2-5% are vegan? And except in rare cases (Hindu, some Buddhists), those beliefs aren't usually backed by the force of mainstream belief. Makes for an easy target.
Even when I travel to Asia, in the more rural areas it's hard to convey an accurate meaning of Western vegetarianism, and especially veganism. Different cultures have different categorizations for meats, poultry, fish, shellfish, eggs, milk, etc., like many don't really consider fish to be meat. As a proxy, I often have to ask for something to be made "Buddhist vegetarian" instead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_...) – again a religious practice, and unfortunately one that excludes delicious toppings like garlic, onions, etc.
Elsewhere in the world, where there's no religious proxies, it's even harder. You're basically left with specialist vegan restaurants or nothing to eat at all.
Maybe this is because I'm in a fairly liberal big city, but the only time I see people mocking vegans is when they try to make converts, similar to how they would treat any of the other groups trying.
Growing up in a very meat heavy conservative place I have often been in conversations with people who mock vegetarians for existing.
Anecdotally I've been at a party and a family friend was sharing a "super funny story" where his daughters boyfriend brought Beyond Sausages and he said "I hope you brought sides cause I'm not putting that sissy shit on my grill". This story got a big laugh from all the boomers / older Gen X folks
Most people will never personally encounter more than 0-1 of any rare or uncommon way of thinking or living. The loudest people are the most self-sure and radical, which makes them ideal candidates for those rare encounters. They come to represent the whole for most people who aren't practiced at seeing past that sort of thing.
You don't think about the vegetarians around you who keep to themselves and go about their way of life without trying to push it on others, so they're quietly embarrassed by those noisy few. At least that's my guess. I don't know that I know any vegetarians.
> For a rare lifestyle choice—one that is selfless, and also fundamentally personal—vegetarianism tends to drive people pretty bonkers.
This is why vegetarians get mocked. Because they say stuff like "selfless lifestyle choice." On the other hand, I've never seen practicing Hindu's made fun of for their vegetarian diets, whether that's on the West coast or in the Midwest, because they're not wearing it on their sleeve as part of their identity.
I'm loving the rise of vegetarian/vegan food which has improved the quality and availability of non-meat dishes all over the place, but all sides of this mini culture war are insufferable.
A quick look and the author of this article doesn't appear to be a vegetarian. So I don't believe this is case of vegetarians self aggrandizing, but one writers appraisal of the lifestyle choice.
Readit News
It's pretty easy to understand that in at least North America our livestock handling practices cause a huge amount of suffering to animals for the enjoyment of people. But most people are able to ignore / justify that with a "well, it's bad but you gotta eat".
When presented with a group of people who make the choice not to eat animals / contribute to that suffering it challenges that justification and makes people very uncomfortable and in some cases angry. The easiest way to resolve this conflict is to mock those people and write them off as some kind of sanctimonious kill joys
Campinas teaching people how to cook tasty and easy vegetarian dishes would go a long way.
But no, we will block the entrance to steak restaurant and call you names is the way to go...
I also agree in a number of cases education is an important tool for making headway but I do also get that visible protest that confronts the issue you're tackling is also important.
(Edit: Nm, you probably meant "campaign". For a second there, I thought campinas were like "little camps" that people host to teach cooking... I was like where do they have those? I wanna check one out!)
Italian and Indian food is where it's at. Is Indian food well known in the US? There's plenty in the UK but most generic "Indian" is mostly Punjabi in particular. It's not hard to find proper vegetarian Indian food if you look, though.
I assume most people who are "offended" by it are harbouring guilt. Usual story.
Deleted Comment
However, even then, you're usually stuck with the same few options everywhere you go. At Indian restaurants you usually do have a bit more variety (thank you Hindis), but it's still the same like 9-10 entries... your typical chana masala, palak/matar paneer, aloo gobhi, pakora, biryani, etc. And if you're vegan, it's either the chana or the daal if you want any protein at all.
At other ethnic places, it's typically more like 2-3 options if you're lucky: Some sort of mixed veggie tofu stir fry at the Chinese places, pad thai/kee mao without fish/oyster sauce at the Thai places, marinara/lasagna/eggplant at the Italian places, falafels at the Mediterranean places, etc. Even the specialist vegetarian/vegan places typically have very similar menus, usually fried comfort foods or various mock meats, with some sort of nutritional yeast & cashew sauce, topped with tofu, seitan or jackfruit.
Compare that to the dozens of options a regular person would have at any restaurant, and the hundreds of restaurants in any city. Even with all the spices in the world, there's only so much you can do with legumes, grains, nuts, and leaves. You really do lose out on a lot of variety. Meats, milks, and eggs have taste and textures all their own, produced by the different animal species of the world. Only recently have we been able to replicate some of their tastes and textures in the lab from veggie ingredients, but it seems like that fad has mostly passed (Beyond and Impossible aren't doing so well, and the smaller brands remain niche, and omnivore interest around them has mostly waned.)
I say that as someone who's been vegetarian and then vegan in the US for nearly 20 years. Yes, there's more to eat than most people think, but still way, WAY less than any omnivore or pescatarian would have access to. After all, they can eat all the same things too, but add whatever animal ingredients they want on top of it.
The situation might be a little better if you're a good cook and can make delicious meals at home, but even then, you're fundamentally limited to trying to dress up generally bland plants & legumes with fancy sauces. And many cookbooks don't really provide balanced meals (typically lacking in satiety or protein), especially when vegan.
Overall, it's just a lot of time, effort, and expense, and greatly limits your dining options and also your social options (eating out with friends, going over to their place, hosting them for dinner, etc.). Hasn't really been a big problem since it kinda ends up being self-selecting anyway (the vegetarianism has good overlap with people who also share my values, hobbies, love of the outdoors, etc.), but that's a regional cultural thing. In more conservative/traditional areas, it would be absolute social suicide. Food is huge in many cultures and subcultures, and disavowing 90% of what people eat is a good way to get yourself shunned and mocked.
For those people it would be incredibly easy to go veggie. The lies the meat industry have told about soya etc don't help, though.
It sounds like it's definitely easier in the UK. I cook most of my food at home but it's always quite easy to find stuff that's 100% veggie and delicious. If you have to look harder that just makes it more fun. The veggie places tend to be good, whereas the meat places can range from good all the way down to complete dogshit.
Personally, I eat meat, but I don't take issue with people who don't, and I'm glad they have more and more options, many of which I enjoy myself. But I'm not a big fan of those substitutes. I'd rather have meat, or a more traditional vegetarian/vegan dish(even something like a black bean burger).
That said, in line with the article, when I was in college, I had the Maddox "For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three" image blown up as a poster on my dorm door. I had a "PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals" t-shirt that I wore around. My aim was to upset the vegetarians, and I made fun of them whenever I saw a window. I can't speak for others' motivations, but the fact that there was a group of people living a lifestyle that I thought was borderline impossible cast inherent doubt and judgment on my own choices. Having to confront the fact that they might be right led to a lot of unresolved cognitive dissonance and anger.
If you'd have told me that ~20 years later I'd be vegan, married to another vegan, and raising a child on an entirely plant-based diet, I'd have laughed in your face.
People who don't care don't care. You cared. So I think going veggie/vegan was inevitable, unless, perhaps, you were just a genuine asshole like Bourdain. Most people aren't assholes, though.
My understanding (possibly a decade or more out of date... been a while since I last did any real research on the topic) was that vegetarianism was well-tested and easily made healthy, but veganism is still kinda experimental in terms of its long-term effects, especially for newborns and young children. I think the uncertainties were especially focused on bone and teeth development & maintenance.
Have you noticed anything positive or negative? Do their check-ups come back OK?
It’s amazing to me that I can walk into just about any hole in the wall tavern around me and I can still get a decent burger and a beer with my friends. 15-20 years ago maybe once in a blue moon I’d find some place that had dried and tough Morningstar patty that tasted like burnt sawdust, but most of the time I’d be stuck with a shitty garden salad or fries, if not forgoing the depressing ordeal and just drinking my meal.
At home I prefer to make everything from scratch because it tastes better, is usually cheaper, and is healthier, plus I love trying new things all the time. Last weekend I made patties from beets, lentils, rice, onion, breadcrumbs, peanut butter, and a bit of fennel… so good. But I get lazy like everyone else, and usually like once a week I just want a big fucking greasy burger, and Impossible does the trick.
I also appreciate that better products has gotten more people to lessen branch out. I can think of a whole bunch of stereotypical “but bacon tho” veg haters amongst my friends and family that have decided for various reasons to reduce meat intake and have found these products and veg cuisine in general to be an enjoyable and eye opening experience… just like I did.
One area still lacking is a plant-based alternative to lean meats like chicken. Simulate has a chicken ("chicken") breast, but I haven't tried it yet.
Also, I suggest anyone who eats meat and has a functional sense of smell to take a trip to Greeley, CO.
However, Beyond/Impossible/Daiya (fake cheese) have been a lifesaver in one particular situation: Giving me something to eat at places that omnivores like to frequent (brewpubs, food trucks, pizza joints, etc.). It's a huge upgrade compared to the pitiful "leaves with vinegar" that they would've had before. The fake meats & cheeses allows otherwise boring restaurants offer a filling veggie option with minimal change to their menu and staffing.
---------
* If anyone wants to try other artificial/fake vegan stuff, I really like Daring shredded chicken, Gardein fish steaks, Beyond spicy sausages, Sol Cuisine nuggets, Just Egg slices, Violife smoked provolone, and Morning Star corn dogs.
None of them are particularly healthy though, and they're all pretty expensive. Not recommended if you want to optimize for value or health.
Though I agree there's a bit of a categorical difference in the way Beyond, Impossible, and some Gardein stuff mimics meat compared to, say, jackfruit.
I still eat burgers. They taste better than the meat versions because they're made with vegetables.
I think most kids are raised with an understanding that many people they meet will have different religious beliefs and that they can't be rude about it. Comparatively, only what, maybe 10% of the world is vegetarian, and of those, maybe 2-5% are vegan? And except in rare cases (Hindu, some Buddhists), those beliefs aren't usually backed by the force of mainstream belief. Makes for an easy target.
Even when I travel to Asia, in the more rural areas it's hard to convey an accurate meaning of Western vegetarianism, and especially veganism. Different cultures have different categorizations for meats, poultry, fish, shellfish, eggs, milk, etc., like many don't really consider fish to be meat. As a proxy, I often have to ask for something to be made "Buddhist vegetarian" instead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism#Common_...) – again a religious practice, and unfortunately one that excludes delicious toppings like garlic, onions, etc.
Elsewhere in the world, where there's no religious proxies, it's even harder. You're basically left with specialist vegan restaurants or nothing to eat at all.
Anecdotally I've been at a party and a family friend was sharing a "super funny story" where his daughters boyfriend brought Beyond Sausages and he said "I hope you brought sides cause I'm not putting that sissy shit on my grill". This story got a big laugh from all the boomers / older Gen X folks
You don't think about the vegetarians around you who keep to themselves and go about their way of life without trying to push it on others, so they're quietly embarrassed by those noisy few. At least that's my guess. I don't know that I know any vegetarians.
Dead Comment
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Vegetarianis...
[0] - https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/skeletons-...
This is why vegetarians get mocked. Because they say stuff like "selfless lifestyle choice." On the other hand, I've never seen practicing Hindu's made fun of for their vegetarian diets, whether that's on the West coast or in the Midwest, because they're not wearing it on their sleeve as part of their identity.
I'm loving the rise of vegetarian/vegan food which has improved the quality and availability of non-meat dishes all over the place, but all sides of this mini culture war are insufferable.