It's not too surprising. Yes, Germany is slow to adapt to new tech, but they are a car manufacturing powerhouse and are the biggest country in Europe. The whole country is in an everlasting debate about its dependency on car manufacturing, and cars are _very_ important. It would be surprising if they weren't no 1 producer (and probably consumer) in Europe.
It is surprising to me, though, seeing as Germany was the country responsible for undercutting the ban [1] on sales of new combustion engine cars in the EU after 2035. It is wild to me that they would block such an important deal knowing that they are already ahead of everyone else.
There is an ongoing war between the progressive and old forces. And the old forces try very hard to preserve the outdated technologies for whatever reason. Problem is that they are few, but in powerful positions, so they poison the waters for everyone, as they did already for the last decade with the whole energy-topic. At this point, it's really ridiculous how much one can stay behind and still harm everyone.
It's not really surprising. EVs (both foreign and domestic) haven't caught up in price and range as fast as expected since the proposal was originally made, for EVs to be a drop-in replacement for ICE cars the voting population can afford and drives to work everyday and on vacation in the south of Europe every summer.
And neither is the EV charging infrastructure already there to support the same use cases. And since there's no sign we'll be there in 10 years, then a lot of voters will be pissed that they'll be priced out of car ownership when the future they were promised didn't pan out.
I'm already betting the deadline will be extended past 2035 as we get closer to it.
I am not sure a decade is enough time and after the energy crisis in the EU with the Ukraine conflict, I am not sure its smart to back yourself into a corner.
Why would they pass legislation against one of their biggest industries when it isn't entirely clear how things will play out? EVs still face substantial hurdles on their way to replacing ICE vehicles. Germany is not going to encroach on their biggest businesses and employers until all uncertainty is gone.
It's easier for a country where this doesn't matter as much to pass such legislation.
Germany FUBARed this like you wouldn't believe, those responsible will probably be branded traitors decades after the fact, primarily Schroeder (now a Gazprom shill) but probably also Merkel for not doing anything to change the status quo.
Up until 2011 or so Germany was a leader in solar and wind power equipment production. Then they cut off subsidies and it took AN ENTIRE DECADE to get back where they were, in terms of adding additional capacity, by which point China absolutely towered over everyone else.
Europe has also missed the battery production train.
Oil and gas are considered geostrategic priorities and almost every country tried to secure its supply. Solar and wind power equipment production as well as battery production, for some reason, were treated as second class citizens in a world where they will replace oil and gas for 80% of uses.
Sure, renewable _electricity_ is up. But up alone is not enough. When talking energy, you should use gross energy, including e.g. transport.
Take this chart [0] from wikipedia [1]. Doesn't look too amazing. Now, being a gross exporter, the numbers are obviously skewed, but I didn't really mean EVs or electrical production specifically. German bureaucracy famously still runs on fax and emails are printed, there are lots of small-ish villages to small cities with _really_ bad internet connection among other things. It's a big country where politicians seem to be really afraid of change. It's not that the country is stuck in the 70s, but some things just take more time to arrive in Germany, or at least in parts of it.
Electricity generation is still 25% coal. Germany's emissions per capita are very high compared to, say, France, because their electricity production is still actually very dirty. France's electricity production has been very low-emissions for decades because of nuclear and hydro.
There's a lot of spin about renewables in Germany but overall this is a failed energy policy.
It's great to shift on renewable energy, but the end goal is to reduce greenhouse gazes, and mostly Co2. Regarding this, they are still doing really bad [1], compared to countries like France who kept nuclear plants. I think that shutting down their nuclear plants and shifting on coal is a weird move. In the end, they couldn't prove that shifting to renewables was efficient. They also still buy some nuclear power to other countries.
Like digitalization? Like Solar Panel building (in 2022 like 80% where imported)? Or like in the past about credit cards? ("we don't want plastic money" moment)
> Like renewable energy? 1st quarter 2024: 58,4% electricity from renewable energy. Up from 48.5% last year.
This is what happens when you shut down nuclear (which is carbon-neutral by the way), and start importing more. Total energy usage in Germany is down which is terrible news for your economy. The narrative that German energy policy under the current government has been anything but a failure is ridiculous, but some people just love to believe any garbage that comes out of Habeck's mouth.
I once took a tour through the VW HQ's manufacturing plant in Wolfsburg.
Those buildings are incredible, some packed full with robots all squeezed into the smallest possible space. Videos on YouTube [0] give you an impression of what it looks like, but being there, seeing and hearing all those machines, is yaw-dropping.
For those who have the opportunity to go, go! People like to go to museums to look at paintings and the like, this is no different, but you get to see what modern production can look like at its peak.
Biggest country when talking about economics is almost invariably in reference to population. And they appear to be talking about the EU, otherwise we would have to include Turkey, and another country we would rather not.
Where I'm from, when you say "biggest" country, it's by default population unless specified otherwise. Area really isn't an important metric here (unless your country is tiny), because the ability of economic and industrial output scales with population more than with area. The most logical comparison would be by GDP here, because we're comparing economy.
But for population, which is what I think about when specifying country size without any explanation:
Germany is #3 here. You'll see that Russia and Turkey are partly in Europe and bigger than Germany, but since they're mostly in Asia I think most people wouldn't consider them mainly European but rather mainly Asian. There's bound to be some discussion here since it really isn't very clear cut. I'll rephrase to "Germany is at least the third-biggest country in Europe".
It may be unintuitive to you, but "the biggest" in many cases means "most populous" and Germany is that - we don't count Russia (because it is not entirely in Europe) or Turkey (for a similar reason) really.
But the good Greeks did us a great service by shpwing us they couldnt afford those cars without taking loans from German banks. And by not being able to repay those loans, proved what a fucking house of cards the whole story about being a 'power house' is.
I guess that's a reference to the Greek government-debt crisis of 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#G... "Critics have also accused the German government of hypocrisy; of pursuing its own national interests via an unwillingness to adjust fiscal policy in a way that would help resolve the eurozone crisis; of using the ECB to serve their country's national interests; and have criticised the nature of the austerity and debt-relief programme Greece has followed as part of the conditions attached to its bailouts."
I can't tell from the article if they count Tesla's Berlin factory as "German assembly line".
If not, the article should say that.
If yes, to say that "Germany’s automakers manufactured" 1 million EVs is misleading given that around 25% of that was Tesla's Model Y.
Tesla has a factory in Germany but it's a stretch to call it a German automaker, just like Toyota has factories in Mexico but we don't call it Mexican company.
Either way, to namecheck Volkswagen or BMW but not Tesla is just bizarre.
Ford also has a Germany factory. Probably most big auto manufacturers do. Foreign cars are big in Germany (I think I read 40%), as they are in basically every country.
Of course other factories should still count, why wouldn't they? You're only thinking of Tesla because its always in the news, but there are plenty of other 100% legit foreign auto manufacturers in Germany.
Germany is weird. They talk a lot about green, but sabotage and protest against Tesla factory, because 'reasons'. While being perfectly ok with Coal strip mining.
The mine is on the site of the ancient Hambach Forest, which was purchased by RWE in 1978. The company then cut most of the forest down and cleared it to mine. Only 10% of the forest area remains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambach_surface_mine
1) There's 80 million germans, some hold different opinions.
2) The 'reasons' are real, the factory is Grunheide is dumping all their wastewater into the water system, it's literally ending up in people's homes. As you can imagine, Musk thinks he can just wrestle and bend opposition, so they keep denying and refusing to fix the issue and create an appropriate waste system. Tribunals are slow in Germany, that doesn't help. Also, Tesla has required to expand the factory and take down 250 acres of forest, another thing that is disliked.
AFAIK the protest surrounding the tesla factory were more related to the horrendous work culture that is present at tesla and the amount of pollution that has reportedly been found dumped by tesla factories. 'Because reasons' seem to imply that allowing a tesla plant to be constructed in your country is a resounding net-positive for that country but I think Germany was correct in assessing that the "tesla mindset" isn't completely in line with (West-)European ideals.
Well, 1978 was a long time ago and environmental concerns weren't a big thing back then. RWE had all rights to do what they did, even the Green party acknowledged that when the Hambach Forest situation escalated.
About the Tesla factory thing, those protests are mostly done by a handful of environmental activists and - most importantly - NIMBYs from the surrounding area.
Perfectly ok? The protests against cutting down the Hambach forest were among the fiercest environmental protests in German history, activists camped out in the forest for years and it took hundreds of policemen to resolve that situation, one person died in an accident and the media covered this for many months.
And to be frank electric cars don’t solve the climate crisis, right now they’re little more than expensive toys for the affluent, it’s cool to drive around in a Tesla but don’t believe you save the planet doing that.
With "Perfectly ok" I think the commenter meant that the German Politics contradicts itself with its decisions, e.g. We want to become “greener” aka climate neutral in the long term and at the same time we are reopening coal-fired power plants because we need the energy in the short term.
> And to be frank electric cars don’t solve the climate crisis, right now they’re little more than expensive toys for the affluent, it’s cool to drive around in a Tesla but don’t believe you save the planet doing that.
Tesla's current range doesn't go low enough to replace all vehicles, but transport is one of the single largest greenhouse gas sources — electric vehicles may not be sufficient, but it certainly is a necessary part of solving climate change, given the scale of the problem.
> And to be frank electric cars don’t solve the climate crisis
If governments were serious about climate change they would invest heavier in public transport, not greener cars (which are only greener to drive, but definitely not manufacture).
I've had a couple of German cars, and a few Japanese cars. I'll never own another German car because the maintenance costs (my experience and that of a family member) are crazy compared to Japanese cars.
German EV production is too expensive, they need to cut on additional options and quality of materials. Electric BMW X3 is just a joke in China on it's price point.
Readit News
[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine...
And neither is the EV charging infrastructure already there to support the same use cases. And since there's no sign we'll be there in 10 years, then a lot of voters will be pissed that they'll be priced out of car ownership when the future they were promised didn't pan out.
I'm already betting the deadline will be extended past 2035 as we get closer to it.
It's easier for a country where this doesn't matter as much to pass such legislation.
Like renewable energy? 1st quarter 2024: 58,4% electricity from renewable energy. Up from 48.5% last year.
Up until 2011 or so Germany was a leader in solar and wind power equipment production. Then they cut off subsidies and it took AN ENTIRE DECADE to get back where they were, in terms of adding additional capacity, by which point China absolutely towered over everyone else.
Europe has also missed the battery production train.
Oil and gas are considered geostrategic priorities and almost every country tried to secure its supply. Solar and wind power equipment production as well as battery production, for some reason, were treated as second class citizens in a world where they will replace oil and gas for 80% of uses.
Take this chart [0] from wikipedia [1]. Doesn't look too amazing. Now, being a gross exporter, the numbers are obviously skewed, but I didn't really mean EVs or electrical production specifically. German bureaucracy famously still runs on fax and emails are printed, there are lots of small-ish villages to small cities with _really_ bad internet connection among other things. It's a big country where politicians seem to be really afraid of change. It's not that the country is stuck in the 70s, but some things just take more time to arrive in Germany, or at least in parts of it.
[0]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/8v6gc06xa... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_Europe...
There's a lot of spin about renewables in Germany but overall this is a failed energy policy.
(Edited)
[1]: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE
> Like renewable energy? 1st quarter 2024: 58,4% electricity from renewable energy. Up from 48.5% last year.
Generation, not consumption* (but still great!!)
Those buildings are incredible, some packed full with robots all squeezed into the smallest possible space. Videos on YouTube [0] give you an impression of what it looks like, but being there, seeing and hearing all those machines, is yaw-dropping.
For those who have the opportunity to go, go! People like to go to museums to look at paintings and the like, this is no different, but you get to see what modern production can look like at its peak.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD-ibWKi2J8&t=205
Err, what? #6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
But for population, which is what I think about when specifying country size without any explanation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
Germany is #3 here. You'll see that Russia and Turkey are partly in Europe and bigger than Germany, but since they're mostly in Asia I think most people wouldn't consider them mainly European but rather mainly Asian. There's bound to be some discussion here since it really isn't very clear cut. I'll rephrase to "Germany is at least the third-biggest country in Europe".
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Eu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
Russia and Türkiye are partly in Asia, so not really completely European
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I can't tell from the article if they count Tesla's Berlin factory as "German assembly line".
If not, the article should say that.
If yes, to say that "Germany’s automakers manufactured" 1 million EVs is misleading given that around 25% of that was Tesla's Model Y.
Tesla has a factory in Germany but it's a stretch to call it a German automaker, just like Toyota has factories in Mexico but we don't call it Mexican company.
Either way, to namecheck Volkswagen or BMW but not Tesla is just bizarre.
Of course other factories should still count, why wouldn't they? You're only thinking of Tesla because its always in the news, but there are plenty of other 100% legit foreign auto manufacturers in Germany.
The mine is on the site of the ancient Hambach Forest, which was purchased by RWE in 1978. The company then cut most of the forest down and cleared it to mine. Only 10% of the forest area remains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambach_surface_mine
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/28/1010956116/a-coal-mining-mons...
2) The 'reasons' are real, the factory is Grunheide is dumping all their wastewater into the water system, it's literally ending up in people's homes. As you can imagine, Musk thinks he can just wrestle and bend opposition, so they keep denying and refusing to fix the issue and create an appropriate waste system. Tribunals are slow in Germany, that doesn't help. Also, Tesla has required to expand the factory and take down 250 acres of forest, another thing that is disliked.
3) Agree on your coal criticism.
There were protests against coal mine expansions as well.
About the Tesla factory thing, those protests are mostly done by a handful of environmental activists and - most importantly - NIMBYs from the surrounding area.
And to be frank electric cars don’t solve the climate crisis, right now they’re little more than expensive toys for the affluent, it’s cool to drive around in a Tesla but don’t believe you save the planet doing that.
Tesla's current range doesn't go low enough to replace all vehicles, but transport is one of the single largest greenhouse gas sources — electric vehicles may not be sufficient, but it certainly is a necessary part of solving climate change, given the scale of the problem.
If governments were serious about climate change they would invest heavier in public transport, not greener cars (which are only greener to drive, but definitely not manufacture).
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Tesla cars are everything but green.
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