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Posted by u/tHrOwAwAyXQWE 2 years ago
Ask HN: Am I dead meat already?
Hi. I've been in the profession (SW Eng) for about 18 yrs now. A few years from my 50s. Didn't go the managerial route. Stayed technical. My current gig is in a very difficult and complex project written in C. Been there for 2 yrs now and I'm afraid that due to the ancient tech stack and despite being a good engineer I'm loosing my marketability.

After enduring bad behavior for nth time (yeah it's a toxic workplace) I decided I had enough and did a round of applications. Mostly for backend positions and mostly for golang positions. I don't have prod xp with golang but it's close to C and every time I've used it it seemed ok. But the problem is that I'm either being ignored or skipped over. All jobs are for seniors in the _specific_tech_stack_. Other positions I've applied for and got no response whatsoever are architects, tech managers and the like. Granded, this regards a turd job market (EU/Greece) but still that's where I am at.

Am I toasted for good? I mean, nearing my 50s with my most recent gig writing "C" on it is as good as declaring my career over?

kstenerud · 2 years ago
I remember in 1999 thinking "Damn! The world's moved on to Java and I'm still writing in C! I won't last much longer..." Then I got a job writing C code for those wireless credit card doohickies (a nasty mess of Z80s with crazy paging schemes to access 2mb of memory, but I digress).

A few years later I actually started working in Java and Python, and then iPhone came along and I was right back in C land again!

Then in 2016 I got a job writing in Go, which lasted 2 years - aaaaand now I'm back to writing C (and C++) again - 25 years after my C-career crisis.

It's not like I'm actively seeking C jobs - I'm a polyglot and can handle pretty much anything. But again and again these C jobs just keep coming out of the woodwork... And I can command premium salary because there just aren't many skilled C developers anymore.

erbdex · 2 years ago
Perhaps a biased view but fter teaching students from colleges I feel that most who are "born in the high level" world float comfortably without needing to understand fundamentals (memory, OS interfaces, arch, drivers, crashes, ..).

As soon as something basic goes down or when you have unexpected dives into low level stuff, the fair weather pilots are suddenly out of their depth.

I started with C, eventually moved into business roles and honestly wasn't even that good a dev. But looking at the uncertainty ahead in the world from a climate point of view, I sometimes worry about the future of tech talent.

We are losing tech veterans at a high rate and gaining a lot of chatgpt devs. I once remember a stackoverflow outage from my dev days and a large part of team went on vacation in the second half as we were so used to asking and copying.

Any fragility to modern infra will make us fall so hard on our faces I fear and hope I am wrong.

kstenerud · 2 years ago
It's been like this for a long time already.

I still remember a colleague complaining to me in 2001 about a crash they were having in the data entry app (written in Java) that was wreaking havoc in the bank's check clearing department. The stack trace would go to JNI, into a vendor's .so and then SIGSEGV with an address of 0. The trouble was, nobody knew anything below Java.

I tracked down the issue after examining the crash report over lunch for shits and giggles. It failed in memcpy because it was trying to copy a null pointer. I disassembled the vendor's .so and checked the offsets to see where the code was going, and it turned out that the fingerprint reader code would return a null if it failed to scan properly (and the library had no null check). The vendor refused to fix it, so I patched the .so with a few nops, an xor and a je to work around it.

Everyone looked at me like I was some kind of god who commanded the very chips themselves.

Once the old guard is gone, I wonder what they'll do...

giantg2 · 2 years ago
"As soon as something basic goes down or when you have unexpected dives into low level stuff, the fair weather pilots are suddenly out of their depth."

Then they just jump jobs and get a 50% raise after enduring the "poor work environment" at their previous job.

erbdex · 2 years ago
The market is going through a massive liquidity crunch and startup funding, therefore tech hiring is at an all time low since 2010s.

This is not you but the market. Consolidate and don't take this as a judgement on your skills sir.

C will never go out of fashion.

veryseniorwow · 2 years ago
> Am I toasted for good

That might be rather harsh wording, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

I am in my mid 40s, have been professionally in the business since my 20s and recently "migrated" out as I did not see much potential in it any more.

Admittedly, it also depends on how flexible you are and how willing to adopt the latest trends (to avoid saying fads :) ). If you feel comfortable with that, it shouldn't be "impossible" to stay in the field but the age will certainly still play a factor.

I am not sure how good my advice can be, but if you want to stay technical and with Go, I'd say keep applying for such positions. Many companies will reject you because you may not fulfill their arbitrary requirements, but there'll be eventually a company who recognises your experience and your abilities.

While I am probably biased, I would still say programming has become a rather tough market these days for anyone 35+

veryseniorwow · 2 years ago
And yes, what jc6 said might be true as well. The public sector often does not immediately go all-in on the latest fads and may have more realistic expectations.

Still, no guarantee either of course.

tHrOwAwAyXQWE · 2 years ago
> "migrated" out

what did you do?

irvingprime · 2 years ago
Your complaint that jobs are for the specific tech stack is spot on. Employers are currently treating every job as a specialization. It's a combination of a filtering technique (because there are too many candidates for every job right now) and complete stupidity (Because there are too many options for tech stacks so that, sometimes, your pool is very shallow indeed).

I'm older than you are and have been out of work for longer than ever before in my life. BUT I finally got a decent offer and will be starting a new job soon. There is hope.

gizajob · 2 years ago
Lie about your age and fabricate new skills on your resume/CV. Put “I code in C/Java/Go/Python/Javascript/whateverYouNeed”.

Also you’re in the EU so could feasibly move to where needs your exact skill set. But web/frontend/backend is needed everywhere so it’s likely worth adding that to your C skills.

self_awareness · 2 years ago
This is a horrible advice. If a simple and harmless lie is detected, you destroy your credibility completely. Nothing you say will have any meaning, even if you prove it. You lied once, you can lie again. The risk of hiring you is very high, even if you fit the position nicely.
dukeyukey · 2 years ago
> Also you’re in the EU so could feasibly move

You _could_, but reaslitically speaking the frictions with language, culture, and distance from family and friends probably makes this harder than maoving US -> Canada or vice-versa. The EU tried hard to overcome this, but they're fighting national differences and cultural borders older than Christianity.

smartis2812 · 2 years ago
This is a horrible advice.

Don't lie about anything in your resume/CV. If you get called out, your whole reputation and your whole CV then is in Question.

ghusto · 2 years ago
There are lies and there are "lies" waiting to be truths. If you can back it up on the fly, what's the harm?
gizajob · 2 years ago
It's horrible advice yeah – but it deals with the reality of the situation. If you're freaked out by being 50 in a field that for some bizarre reason values youth and inexperience, then be 40. Nobody cares, particularly if you're working remote.
amerkhalid · 2 years ago
I believe it is illegal in the US to ask someone's age during interview. Only after you are hired and filling out paperwork is when they ask for your birthday.

Not sure if it is same in the EU, but if it is illegal don't volunteer your age. No need to lie.

giantg2 · 2 years ago
They don't need you're birthday to see you're old.
jacknews · 2 years ago
I definitely would not lie.

But perhaps you can be economical with facts and/or 're-prioritize' them, if expedient, ie choose which cards to reveal and with what emphasis.

Personally, I just tell it matter-of-fact as I see it, pretty much. You're looking for a good match of a job after all so may as well be fairly honest. Take that advice with a bucket of salt though because I'm still looking after <cough>, a year ... <cough, cough> ... or so.

piva00 · 2 years ago
> Also you’re in the EU so could feasibly move to where needs your exact skill set.

Uprooting your life when you are 25-30 is easier, can be a fun adventure, etc. Doing that when you are 50 is many layers more complicated.

Lying is absolutely a no-no, there's no upside, you will be forever in debt about a lie and in the case of something as easily detected as your age you will lose all credibility for a stupid reason.

gwbas1c · 2 years ago
> so could feasibly move

Asking someone to move is usually quite unreasonable, unless there's legit problems where the person lives. A lot of people, especially people in their 50s, have roots that they just can't walk away from.

Furthermore, software gigs tend to be much shorter than how often people stay in a location; and remote work in software is super-common today.

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tgv · 2 years ago
I wouldn't recommend lying about age. That's going to backfire.

Padding the resume isn't a bad idea. If you've worked in C, and taught yourself Go, you're senior in my book. I mean, you may not know the gnarly corners of the language and eco system, but that's easy enough to pick up.

rcarmo · 2 years ago
Moving residence in the EU is not a trivial thing--housing, family, taxes, even language can play against you.
jgwil2 · 2 years ago
Don't lie. Do remove years that you received any degrees to make it harder for them to infer your age with certainty.
sshine · 2 years ago
You're a senior in every way but one; coding Go.

Applying for a junior Go position would probably not be a good fit for you.

Applying for a mid-level Go position sounds uphill because competing candidates have 1-2 years of professional Go experience.

I would overcome that by accepting any opportunity to get real Go experience.

For example, I'm spending some extra hours every week for a money-less startup on an "I'll register the hours and you'll pay me next year" basis.

As a reward, I learn Phoenix/Elixir and Nix: The lead will spend time fast-forwarding me through the commands, and I can spend some hours that I don't bill them on qualifying. For my next interview, I can say I've spent X months doing Phoenix/Elixir and/or Nix in production. The money is secondary.

Alternatively: Use your network. What young people don't have is an abundance of acquaintances who took the management route who can vouch for your generic skill set and work ethics which don't translate into recruiter filter buzzwords.

SillyUsername · 2 years ago
With your C skills I'd consider a parallel market in embedded or low level work to expand your skills in those areas. You might be able to move from that up to to mobile development etc. Tech stacks there tend to be Java, Swift, C, React Native (similar to React web) so it opens a lot of areas.

P.S. I'm not far behind in age but I code in 2 different tech stacks daily at work, on FE and BE, and stick my nose into parallel stacks to get that experience, specifically so I don't get COBOL'd (do one thing my entire career, and then that one thing no longer has developer demand).

jacknews · 2 years ago
But it seems embedded pays horribly, is not respected, and can be way more frustrating due to hardware bugs etc.
0x000xca0xfe · 2 years ago
You are unfortuately right! I gave up embedded development for the time being because it's hard and thankless work.

But maybe for older people it would be ok? Embedded projects are usually more "traditionally" programmed and pretty slow moving.

hiAndrewQuinn · 2 years ago
Pay could be better, and hardware bugs can be frustrating, but I definitely respect embedded guys a lot. More than most generalist developers, in fact, due to the atoms-adjacent nature of their work.
dakiol · 2 years ago
You could spend some working hours brushing up your knowledge about whatever tech stack companies nowadays ask for. You don’t need to become an expert in X, Y and Z, a bit of exposure and understanding of the fundamentals is enough to put it on your CV.

I have done this many times. For example, I didn’t know k8s, and I wanted to switch jobs: I spent around 1-2 months learning k8s at work and at home, I learnt the fundamentals and did some side project and then I put on my CV that I’ve used k8s in my current job (I didn’t). I passed the job interview.

v3ss0n · 2 years ago
As a Founder , I believe it is not fair for someone to look for job applications on company time and sharpening your skills for next job - in time and resources that your company had paid for. Since you have problems with upper management - tough it up , talk about it face to face in a polite manner and highlight their toxic behavior . Tell them you don't like the way you are being treated and you can't continue this way. Since you had been there for so long already it will work in your favor. If things don't go in your way and if you get fired , they need to pay you 3 months - and during that time , you are good enough to learn new things.
instagraham · 2 years ago
The unfair thing in the scenario you describe is the employee choosing to upskill while they continue to do their jobs? And not the company firing them for speaking their mind - giving them 3 months of runway to switch careers in a situation OP already said felt like a shit job market?

Micromanaging employee time is one of the worst signs of a toxic company culture. And definitely not a sign of an efficient one

codingdave · 2 years ago
No, if you have problems with upper management, you should do something about it, but nobody owes their management a discussion about it. If leadership doesn't know how to build a healthy work environment, then people will decide for themselves whether to "manage up" to try to correct it, or to just step out of that environment in whatever way works for them.

That doesn't always mean quitting - I personally try to just change my job role and find that I often can adjust the work to avoid the toxic leaders. But if that cannot be done, leaving the job is a reasonable action.

And "as a Founder", if you think your staff is obligated to pull you out of any holes you dig, you are going to be in for a surprise when you find out just how many people are happy to let toxic leaders fail.

dakiol · 2 years ago
I do sharpen my skills every day at work. Sometimes the skills I sharp are used at work, sometimes they are not (but they are still relevant to my career and so relevant to any software-related job)

How else are we going to keep ourselves sharp? Besides, is on the benefit of the current company that I become more knowledgeable. Crazy to hear this retrograde way of thinking.

dukeyukey · 2 years ago
> sharpening your skills for next job

How do I even work for you without "sharpening my skills"?

Havoc · 2 years ago
Pretty much all sharpening skills happens on someone’s company’s time.