Readit News logoReadit News
Posted by u/rogual 2 years ago
Ask HN: Why am I suddenly unemployable?
Never used to have any trouble finding employment. But it seems as of recently my CV is toxic waste. If recruiters reach out, I give them a good time to call and never hear back. If I reach out to them, silence.

Did I do something recently with an unpopular technology? Did I piss off someone powerful? Did I get too old? Who knows!

Lots of coding experience; bosses have always been happy with my work. I've written stuff about programming online that has been well-received. Several personal projects under my belt, and plenty of OSS contributions too. Suddenly nobody wants to know.

Has anyone here been in a similar situation? Did you fix it? How?

CV in case some kind soul wants to take a look: https://foon.uk/robin-allen-cv.pdf

bmitc · 2 years ago
You are apparently in the UK, but the job market in the U.S. has similarly been very spooky lately. I was laid off and have received almost no interviews outside of a single previous employer. My resume was flat out rejected, even from places that I had previously worked or was made an offer from as little as a year or two ago. It was really weird. As in, previous contacts would not even reply to emails or LinkedIn messages. I felt the same thing, thinking things like if I insulted someone's dog or something. I even got contacted by a former company asking if I'd be interested in coming back, and then when I responded, they responded with a flat "we don't see a fit". Just purely bizarre.

I am finding that more and more people are looking for extremely specific and narrow experience. Like, if you haven't used <x> technology and worked in <y> domain, they don't want to even speak to you. They'd almost rather higher a new grad who happened to work in <x> than someone with experience in many languages and domains. It's really weird. I've been thinking a lot about how to make my own path, because it's exhausting trying to apply and work for myopic places.

sheepscreek · 2 years ago
It’s not you. Nobody is hiring. The ones that say so are in no rush. Executives are pushing hard on doing more with less and improving profitability.

Things should loosen up when the Fed and EU announce rate cuts this year. Hang on. I know this isn’t the answer you were hoping to hear. Perhaps try your luck with contracting? There is more openness to that in this climate (lower threshold to commitment).

dybourqu · 2 years ago
We really need to stop assuming there's going to be rate cuts in 2024, especially from a trying to get a tech job perspective.Rate cuts aren't going to happen unless there's a weak economy

Inflation numbers came in hotter than expected this week. Consumer sentiment is improving. Employment is still high. Investment in manufacturing was massive in 2023.

these same people predicting rate cuts were the sames ones predicting a recession in 2023.

The economy is weird now.

bmitc · 2 years ago
> It’s not you. Nobody is hiring.

Such a simple statement, but it does help. Thanks. :)

adregan · 2 years ago
I was looking for 8 months until I found something. Most of the time, I wasn’t even making it to a tech screen.

Similar to you, I chatted to companies who were looking for concrete experience doing exactly the one thing they were currently working through. And the rug was pulled out from underneath me a few times.

It’s brutal out there, and it will fill anyone with self doubt. The only positive thing I can say is that interviewing for my new role felt normal and nice—the way I thought it’d be. That at least made me feel a lot better about myself.

sage76 · 2 years ago
> I am finding that more and more people are looking for extremely specific and narrow experience. Like, if you haven't used <x> technology and worked in <y> domain, they don't want to even speak to you. They'd almost rather higher a new grad who happened to work in <x> than someone with experience in many languages and domains. It's really weird. I've been thinking a lot about how to make my own path, because it's exhausting trying to apply and work for myopic places.

Exactly why I left this industry permanently.

danjac · 2 years ago
This is definitely why I am thinking about leaving the industry, if and when current gig ends.

Even with a resume tailored exactly to requirements, crickets.

Some copium going around - "it's just interest rates", "thinks will pick up soon". Nope. This is what the end of the industry looks like, at least for a great many developers.

bmitc · 2 years ago
I have definitely thought about it. It wasn't my "dream", if there's such a thing any more when it comes to careers, and I didn't even study it in school. I always say I fell into software, which is true. But I have also considered doing things with software that make me happy in a way that I could make a living from it. I haven't come across something yet, but I have a few ideas in mind that could work with a lot of initial work.
StaircaseWit · 2 years ago
What did you move to?
itmtn · 2 years ago
Been in those shoes before.

Had 3 offers, chose 1 but denied 2 while trying to say "let's stay in touch" because you never know. That time came after 2 years - got canned with many others due to financial reasons, got back in touch with company that had sent me an offer previously and, damn, if it didn't feel like those dry responses you get from your ex after dropping that "wyd?" texts at late evening - simply rejected with no seeming continuation for this potential business relationship.

All in all, not a great time to lose a job. Been digging for about last 4 months and there's nothing really out there - a lot of rejections for fitting jobs and only getting interviews from places that need senior level coders for chump change. Some even have the nerve to pay too little and step back from the mutual agreement of not needing for me to come to office.

brianwawok · 2 years ago
If there is a surplus of talent, a company would rather hire someone who has background in the current stack and can jump right in.

If there is a lack of talent, companies hire whatever is even close and trains the new stuff.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Paul-Craft · 2 years ago
> If there is a lack of talent, companies hire whatever is even close and trains the new stuff.

I've been an engineer for 9 years and not once have I gotten so much as an acknowledgement or a call back on a job that didn't use a very similar tech stack to what I had on my resume.

bmitc · 2 years ago
It is very short term thinking, which doesn't seem straightforward to me.
foofie · 2 years ago
> I am finding that more and more people are looking for extremely specific and narrow experience. Like, if you haven't used <x> technology and worked in <y> domain, they don't want to even speak to you.

That was my experience as well. If a candidate doesn't claim to have over 5 years of experience in a specific tech stack then recruiters just downrank of completely eliminate them from their short list of candidates.

And I won't even start on the hard skills screening process.

I believe this is a reflection of low-level HR technicians with zero tech background taking over the hiring process of some companies. Their work is to filter out unsuited candidates and present a short list of best fits. Thus they follow a pattern matching strategy with the candidate's CV, otherwise they have no way to tell if someone is even competent.

mjenkins65 · 2 years ago
I am finding a bit of a different outlook. I have had several people let me know that if I didn't have experience in their particular technology within the last 2 years, they were not interested in my experiance.
freedomben · 2 years ago
I do hiring in the US not the UK, but I'm only (I'm guessing) a few years older than you so you probably had the "keep it to one page" rule pounded into your head.

I get a lot of resumes, and that is definitely not the case anymore. Two to three pages is perfectly fine. I would suggest:

1. Add a list of skills and/or technologies you're particularly good in. You can include stuff you've used but aren't current in, but make sure it's annotated as such

2. Add a high-level summary that hits the aggregated highlights of your career. Especially important for making sure that the resume reader quickly understands your specialties and focus, depth and breadth. Your Blender work is badass and should def show up in that summary

3. If you have education, I'd add a small thing about that at the bottom. For smaller orgs it doesn't matter but bigger ones it will make a difference. Ditto if you have any certifications

Overall though, I heartily agree that it's a vicious hiring market right now so don't take it personally. You look like a fascinating candidate! If we had open slots and our markets lined up more, I'd be shooting you an email. I'm a little weird in this regard, but I am particularly impressed by open source work that people do. It shows passion, motivation, and a willingness to make the world a better place, which are three things I really appreciate.

MattPalmer1086 · 2 years ago
This is good advice no matter what country you're in. Best advice I ever got is two things:

1. Make it easy for someone reading your CV to quickly know your core skills and experience (i.e. your points 1 and 2).

2. Don't just say you did the job, that's a given. Talk about specific points for each role you are particularly proud of. These will become talking points in an interview.

Saying something like "worked on front end and back end systems" tells me almost nothing about you. What did you do on them? Anything interesting about it, any tricky technical or business problems you solved?

da39a3ee · 2 years ago
Yes but this is misleading and missing the point: there is nothing really wrong with this person's resume/CV. There is nothing about it which is off-putting and it does the job of communicating that this person is a very experienced software engineer who can communicate clearly, and has enough attention to detail and care to produce a nicely formatted CV and that they're obviously a reasonable candidate for pretty much any programming job that's close to their centre of gravity wrt the technologies required for the job.

I also don't really understand why some people with decent CVs are getting literally no bites at all. Has the number of incoming resumes increased a lot in the last year or two? Is it because everyone across the country is applying for the same remote jobs?

CableNinja · 2 years ago
I was laid off in june. Ive been applying since August (except through december to now). Ive had bites and good talks but in the end, donuts. I obviously have no real evidence, but there have been a few times now where the recruiter has said:

- "We got literally thousands of resumes for this position"

- "We have had so many bad resumes, its been hard to find the good ones"

Truth is, right now the tech job market is fucked. Theres been too many layoffs without enough places for others to go. Add to that, that the large companies are laying people off too, and the smaller companies would salivate at having an exgoogler or some other in their ranks

freedomben · 2 years ago
> Yes but this is misleading and missing the point: there is nothing really wrong with this person's resume/CV. There is nothing about it which is off-putting and it does the job of communicating that this person is a very experienced software engineer who can communicate clearly, and has enough attention to detail and care to produce a nicely formatted CV and that they're obviously a reasonable candidate for pretty much any programming job that's close to their centre of gravity wrt the technologies required for the job.

I agree there's nothing wrong, but (respectfully, truly) I think you're actually missing the point, possibly the is/ought fallacy? The point isn't to have "nothing wrong" with your CV/resume (which I agree OP has nothing wrong), the point is to get noticed. Generally speaking for most people, the whole point of a resume is to get you an interview. When you're competing against dozens, hundreds, or thousands of other resumes, standing out is hard, and failure to do so usually means no interview, which means no job, even when you are the most qualified candidate.

Deleted Comment

coldcoldground · 2 years ago
Having #1 and #2 on the first page seems to work well for my resume.

I added a bullet point list of groups of related technologies, each group paired with a number of years of experience. I had feedback from several headhunters that this list had really helped them promote my resume.

philipwhiuk · 2 years ago
Beware the comments here from the US that don't apply to UK CVs - which are a different style. Personal intros are not important.

I can't see any job titles - which is frankly more important than the company and makes it easier to skim sections of experience

Definitely go into more detail than just "Worked on" and "Used" - anything on stuff the company uses in the CV is not confidential and you can put on your CV.

Finally put months on your CV - it's not clear if your most recent role was 12 months or 1.

bmitc · 2 years ago
> Finally put months on your CV - it's not clear if your most recent role was 12 months or 1.

I've stopped doing that because it gets tiring why I changed so frequently in recent years. It's not my fault places go bankrupt, startups do layoffs, or teams just up and dissolve after you join, and it gets tiring explaining that rather than discussing my experience, skills, and interests and the role at hand. It was a total mistake to enter into the startup world.

DecentRecruiter · 2 years ago
At least you got the CHANCE to explain before. Now you can't even do that because your resume is not passing the screen.

You're handicapping yourself with the lack of transparency. It just comes across as shady. Why are you worth the risk compared to the overflow of excellent candidates in this market?

You need to suck it up and share this information. Briefly explain each situation on the resume (i.e. "fixed contract ended" or "startup shut down due to loss of largest customer").

Edit: spelling.

FireBeyond · 2 years ago
I've had way too many ATS's that require day of month. Like WTF.

My automatic response there when filling out is "start date is always first of month, end date is always last of month".

drcongo · 2 years ago
(UK CTO) I'd disagree with the "Personal intros are not important" bit, I use that a lot when filtering but the rest of this is good advice. It's also missing a list of skills you consider yourself to have, what you like doing with those skills, things you maybe do in your off-time - personality basically.

The other thing I'd suggest is tailoring your CV to the roles you're going for - the last time I had to write my own I had a two page appendix of the awards won by my projects as that's the sort of thing the hirers I was targeting would be looking for. And as someone hiring now I'm far more likely to interview someone who's CV shows some interest in the kind of work we do and who we do it for.

dave1999x · 2 years ago
The worst thing about your CV is the non-chronological layout and the second item the "University of Bedfordshire"

A lazy recruiter will see that as a watermark as your education and assume the rest is amateur stuff. This makes it look like you have less than one year experience.

For some companies/recruiters they often like to see month and year for each position. It can be a red flag as it looks like hiding of career gaps.

Lack of personal statement is a lesser problem. Recruiters won't necessarily care, but it makes a hiring managers job harder. The job positions should be seen as supporting evidence for the claims in that statement.

That said, despite these problems, the jobs market is at the slowest it's been for years. Particular for more senior roles.

My company has a hiring freeze despite being profitable and growing and we're cutting costs to avoid making people redundant.

I'm UK based and have reviewed hundreds if not thousands of CVs.

avmich · 2 years ago
> The worst thing about your CV is the non-chronological layout

CVs used to have a choice of layouts, you write in a form you prefer. What's wrong with non-chronologicals now?

stonogo · 2 years ago
I have over 200 resumes to go over this week for an open position. If I have to decipher your narrative it's going in the 'no' pile. Effective communication is a critical skill and evaluating that starts here.

I'm not calling anything "wrong" but I definitely don't have time to have tea with your branding or whatever.

ra0x3 · 2 years ago
This. I was a bit confused by the layout, and I thought the university was OP's undgrad uni.
fardo · 2 years ago
Loved your Hapland games as a kid.

Besides the standard callouts of “it’s an anomalously hard job market right now due to a recent layoffs flooding dev supply of interviewees, due to a post-covid hiring frenzy hangover, due to anticipated US tax code changes discouraging hiring, and due to high interest rates in the US currently discouraging risks including hiring” the thing that may be actually in your control is I notice is a lack of quantification of project deliverables and accomplishments on individual projects.

Looking at the first point as one example, it could be summarized “created app”. Especially as your most recent work, I’d want to see you go more into the experiences the app enabled - perhaps the user counts who were using it, what the experience was for them, any metrics you might have that you moved the needle on, or what your changes enabled people at the installation to do. Quantifying the impact of your work with each work item I think would go a long way towards making the CV better.

rogual · 2 years ago
Hey, thanks for the response.

I'm in the UK so not sure how much the US situation is contributing, though there might be knock-on effects.

I appreciate your feedback about what details to add and about that most recent point. I agree, and will spend some time rewriting.

Again, thanks so much for responding and I'm happy to hear you enjoyed those games. Cheers!

brailsafe · 2 years ago
It's the same in Canada btw
f0e4c2f7 · 2 years ago
We're currently going through the largest tech downturn since the dot com bubble. It's not you, it's the market. Tough for everybody who is looking right now.

For the first time in 20 years there are more applicants than jobs again.

theandrewbailey · 2 years ago
> For the first time in 20 years there are more applicants than jobs again.

I'd argue that happened during 2008 and 2009.

Source: I graduated and had to get a first job during that time. For every 100 positions I applied for, I got a call for 5, and had on site interviews for 1. Sounds like that may be the case again.

eek2121 · 2 years ago
I had absolutely NO problem finding employment during that time period.

First jobs are usually the "first" to go FYI.

I'm a senior dev, and even back then I had a ton of experience.

I agree with OP. This is easily the biggest down cycle since the dot com bubble.

Just remember, things will recover. Eventually.

brailsafe · 2 years ago
That was my experience pre-2023, now it's 100 applications and maybe one response, except there aren't 100 positions, all of them are the highest possible level of seniority and require 10 y.o.e plus a masters degree, and nobody responds to messages.
ownagefool · 2 years ago
This.

I'm in the UK. Strong skills. Good CV. Ghosted constantly.

Half the jobs you're applying for ( or more ) are fake, and the recruiters are just trying to collect CVs to drum up future business.

intelVISA · 2 years ago
Indeed, the market is readjusting - thresholds are a tad higher but not impossible like some make it seem.
eek2121 · 2 years ago
You aren't.

The economy is absolute garbage right now.

I'm in the US and the situation is similar here. I've never had an issue finding a job before either, but I've been unemployed since the middle of 2023.

Assuming you aren't under financial hardship, my advice is to spend more time on your hobbies and check back in around July/August. That is when the layoffs are projected to drop and hiring is expected to keep up.

WXLCKNO · 2 years ago
Every time I bring up this uneasy feeling of everything feeling like it's going to crumble soon, I get employment data hurtled at me and the stock market thrown in my face.

Maybe Canada is worse due to how insane housing is but for the average person life does not feel anywhere like it used to pre pandemic at least.

_heimdall · 2 years ago
Numbers are very easy to manipulate, and are almost never predictive when removed from the original context.

Low unemployment means nothing without also referencing workforce participation rates. Economic data is also effectively useless if, for example, inflation data excludes common expenses like groceries, housing, used cars, etc.

I don't think this was always the case, but economic data today is so easily gamed that its little more than political theater.

acjacobson · 2 years ago
While the numbers for the macro economy may be pretty good - for the tech sector they're terrible.
csomar · 2 years ago
40% of the US population is inactive. Unemployment rate has been made useless, I don't think any software developer contributes to it. The rate now is more about desperate people in critical situation than people who didn't find a job.
datatrashfire · 2 years ago
job market for tech workers != broader economy. blue collar wages in percentage terms have been increasing faster than white collar.

i think many orgs overinvested in tech during the pandemic. we've swung too far, so it's time to work out the excesses.

pgwhalen · 2 years ago
I truly do not mean this in a snarky way - who is projecting that layoffs are projected to drop and hiring is expected to pick up around July/August?
sn9 · 2 years ago
Interviewing.io compared public data to their internal data and make a compelling argument for hiring to pick up in Q2 [0], though I don't know if the recent spate of 2024 layoffs change this calculus.

[0] https://interviewing.io/blog/when-is-hiring-coming-back-pred...

espe · 2 years ago
the "perfectly rational markets" expect the central banks to lower interest rates. which actually assumes that something economically worse happens in the meantime because as it is now, the fed is _not_ lowering.
aaomidi · 2 years ago
The fact that feds have signaled interest rates are going to drop this year.
danjac · 2 years ago
I have zero faith that it is going to pick up again. There is no evidence this is going to be the case. Your time would be better spent retraining for another industry, if that is practical for you.
tonyedgecombe · 2 years ago
>That is when the layoffs are projected to drop and hiring is expected to keep up.

Or this could be the new normal.

PretzelJudge · 2 years ago
It isn't you. I have a solid resume (I know because I've interviewed hundreds of people in my career), but the market is just much slower. In 2020-2022 I was getting 5-10 recruiters reaching out every week. If I thought something was interesting, I'd respond saying that I'm not really looking for anything new, but I'm open to a conversation. People would still be thrilled to speak to me, even though I was upfront that I'd only leave for something perfect.

Lately, I get maybe one person reaching out every month. I responded to one last week, even though I'm not looking, just to see what the job market is like. I was ghosted.

I think we're just not in a hiring frenzy right now. People don't want to leave their jobs and risk it on something new. Some companies are laying off. For the companies that are hiring, they are probably seeing many more applicants and a higher conversion rate.

Things will come around.