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Posted by u/stuart8ol 2 years ago
Launch HN: Stralis (YC W23) – Hydrogen electric aircraft for medium-haul travel
Hi HN, we are Bob and Stuart from Stralis Aircraft (https://stralis.aero). We’re taking advantage of hydrogen electric propulsion technology to design a low cost, 50-seat aircraft that can replace a significant portion of the ubiquitous single-aisle (e.g. Boeing 737) market that makes up ~60% of commercial aircraft sold. We are starting out by developing the propulsion system for a 6-seat Beechcraft Bonanza. So far, we have installed and tested the electric motor and performed some benchtop fuel cell testing. Here’s a quick video showing what it looks like these days: https://vimeo.com/879966330. Next step is to perform some system testing with a COTS fuel cell, whilst we progress our own fuel cell development. We are currently working through setting up our hydrogen electric propulsion test lab at Brisbane International Airport, which will allow us to rapidly prototype subsystems and generate the data we need for the 50 seat, SA-1, design. Quick fly through video of our facility here: https://vimeo.com/884325165

Airlines are anticipating the need to de-carbonise, driven by legislation or by customer pressure, but there is not yet any emission-free aircraft solution that is practical and cost-effective to adopt. Other solutions are either too heavy, like batteries and automotive industry fuel cells, or too expensive and inefficient, like sustainable aviation fuel. It is important to get a low enough CASM (Cost per Available Seat Mile) to allow operators to switch to a sustainable solution without having to dramatically increase ticket prices.

Bob and I met at a company called magniX, who develop high specific power electric motors. magniX quickly identified aerospace as a major market for their technology but at the time, most of the customers were working on battery electric solutions for de-carbonizing air travel. We were personally involved in 3 aircraft platforms (that have flown) that used our motors. Whilst we are super proud of what we achieved and overcoming the technical hurdles to fly those planes, it became clear that batteries were never going to be the solution to de-carbonising a significant portion of air travel. We went on to work at a few different sustainable aviation companies, and slowly became convinced that hydrogen would be the only technology that would have a chance of achieving the goal of sustainable aviation. There is a lot of public discourse on what is the best technology to solve this high-stakes problem, but instead of arguing about what can and can't work, we decided it would be best to dive into the technology and give our best go at what we think has the best chance.

Our propulsion system is quite straightforward—we carry liquid hydrogen in a composite, vacuum insulated storage tank. We boil off the hydrogen and feed it into the fuel cell. We take air from outside the plane to supply the fuel cell with oxygen. Hydrogen and oxygen react in the fuel cell and produce electricity, with water vapor being the only by-product. The electricity then powers a lightweight electric motor that spins a propeller.

Unlike most other fuel cell systems, we use the oxygen supply air to cool the fuel cell as well — removing the need for large, heavy and draggy external heat exchangers. This is achieved through our choice of fuel cell membrane with a much higher operating temperature (180 C). We remove the weight of the heat exchangers but also reduce the weight of the propulsion system as we don’t need to overcome the extra drag created by the radiators. All of this combines to reduce the fuel cell system weight by about 40%, which equates to a doubling of our payload capacity and, therefore, half the CASM, when compared to a conventional PEM fuel cell system.

In addition to our tech, we are also approaching the market differently. We think that a 50-seat aircraft is the optimum size for an aircraft with our hydrogen electric propulsion. This is different from conventional turbofan technology where the optimum size appears to be about 200 seats. All of our competitors are working towards a family of aircraft going upwards of 200 seats (Airbus are only focusing on larger aircraft) but we think there are diminishing returns from building larger hydrogen electric aircraft. Instead, we are honing in on a 50-seat design, optimized for hydrogen electric and designed with automotive manufacture methods in mind. There could be a market demand for up to 50,000 aircraft within the next 25 years, driven by more efficient, point-to-point routes. Most other aircraft programs deliver around 1,000 units, which generally doesn't warrant a large amount of automation, and keeps unit costs high.

Hydrogen fuel cells are not new, but we think the need to de-carbonise, the reduction in renewable energy costs, and the improvement in component technologies such as motors, power electronics, batteries etc. make today the best time to pursue this solution to sustainable air travel. We would love to hear from any of you who have worked in aerospace, sustainable aviation fuel (the biggest alternative to hydrogen) and the hydrogen industry. We would also like to hear from people who fly often, and airlines, to learn how important a switch to a sustainable solution is to you. Looking forward to reading all the comments!

jltsiren · 2 years ago
Maybe this is a big-city perspective, but I've understood that the main constraint driving aircraft size is runway capacity during peak hours. Airports already require a lot of land for handling a relatively small number of passengers. As building additional runways is often not feasible, the only way to increase passenger capacity is using bigger aircraft.

I fly between Helsinki and London often enough. On that route, the aircraft is typically either an A320 or an A350.

stuart8ol · 2 years ago
Yeah there will be some slot constrained routes that will certainly need to stick to the larger aircraft sizes, but many that can benefit from the flexibility of a smaller aircraft size if the operating cost was low enough. There are second city airport and regional routes that would benefit from the smaller plane size, as well as the market that is currently served by these types of planes - Asia pacific is one example of a growing turboprop market.
jillesvangurp · 2 years ago
That's true for big airplanes. Small ones need a lot less runway. Which means they can land at smaller airports. Some of the electrical VTOL planes under development currently don't need airports at all and can take off from pretty much any flat surface.

The size of jet planes is dictated by fuel cost. Fuel is expensive. Large planes expend it more efficiently. But they are also loud and pollute. So people don't like them too close to where they live. When you use fuel by the thousands of liters per flight, it starts to add up in terms of cost. It's also why private jets are only for rich people. They burn hundreds of liters of expensive fuel per flight. Add to that the maintenance and staffing and you are looking at eye watering amounts per flight.

Hydrogen is of course not cheap currently but it might drop in price substantially as renewable energy gets cheaper. At that point a few smaller planes might be cost competitive with a larger jet fueled plane. But still, there are lots of logistical challenges related to getting large quantities of hydrogen to fuel planes. I doubt it will be very economical or practical any time soon.

My pet theory is actually that most short haul flight will shift to small, autonomous, electrical planes. They'll wipe out three of the largest cost factors in aviation: fuel, staffing, and maintenance cost (much less complex mechanical systems). They'll fly point to point rather than hub to hub; or at least tiny airport close to your origin to tiny airport close to your destination. If you want to fly further, you can just chain a few hops. It will work like an uber pretty much.

Inter continental flight is a different challenge. At least short term it's not feasible to do that with battery electric. Synthetic fuels and hydrogen look promising for that. But I wouldn't discount electric for that either long term. If battery breakthroughs keep on happening and we get some fancy solid state batteries delivering 2000 watt per kg or so, that whole game changes as well.

jltsiren · 2 years ago
I think there are three markets:

* Short-haul flights, which often compete with cars and trains. Those could be plausibly served by electric VTOLs. If the claims about noise levels are true, the terminal does not need to be much larger than a city block.

* Medium-haul flights, like discussed here. The aircraft need to be much faster than the VTOLs proposed so far. Conventional runways seem to be necessary for efficiency, but they could be shorter than today.

* Long-haul flights that need big planes and long runways.

Airports that need runways are problematic, because the economic value they provide is low. There are often other more valuable uses for the land. In big and even not-so-big cities, airports tend to move away from the city over time.

For example, Helsinki recently closed the Malmi general aviation airport, which was conveniently located ~10 km from the city center. The area surrounding the former airport is now being developed as a medium-density residential area for 25k people. The runways were not long enough for current regional aircraft, and the facilities and the transit connections could not handle a meaningful number of passengers. As the alternate use as a residential area was worth billions, the airport could no longer be justified.

bobthepanda · 2 years ago
Short runways still need to be sited in cities. In a lot of areas airports are already so close together that the airspace is congested with all the conflicting paths and holding patterns; I think the worst example is NYC where Teterboro, JFK, LaGuardia and Newark make the airspace very suboptimal.
marcosdumay · 2 years ago
Most airports aren't big or constrained.

Instead, a huge problem with aviation is making flights between smaller cities viable. If the OP's planes get any lower operational costs or can profitably scale into fewer passengers, his company will have plenty of success.

timeon · 2 years ago
Airplanes presented here looks like those in private jet category. So these are probably aiming to replace those first?
stuart8ol · 2 years ago
We are not really targeting the private or business jet market (though if someone wanted one for this purpose we wouldn't turn them away!). There is another impressive YC company that is that you should check out, Beyond Aero https://bookface.ycombinator.com/company/26134 We are really targeting a low cost commercial market - moving people and cargo. The smaller size is driven in part by the technology - with 50 seats being a good size to capture a large proportion of flying traffic - and partly that it will be faster and cheaper to certify and get a smaller aircraft into the market.
stetrain · 2 years ago
Depends on the city and airport.

Atlanta for example is a huge busy airport but also serves a lot of regional connections. I have flow in on a 757 and transferred to a much smaller regional jet to hop to a smaller city or town.

foobarian · 2 years ago
As long as we have the number from the OP (60% aircraft sold) it seems like it wouldn't matter where those aircraft go.
phkahler · 2 years ago
I always question if fuel cell / electric is really better than just burning the hydrogen in an engine.

We worked on an electric compressor motor for a fuel cell vehicle project once and it took more than one kilowatt (maybe 2 or 3 I don't recall) to run the compressor. An EV can do highway driving at a few KW so that seemed really inefficient. Aircraft run at higher continuous power so maybe it makes more sense, but I still wonder.

stuart8ol · 2 years ago
Yeah the compressor load goes up with power - we have a 27 kW compressor for our 120kW PEM fuel cell here in the lab (this isn't what is going on the aircraft). This is one of the issues we are tackling with our unique system architecture for the aircraft.
genman · 2 years ago
How is the noise difference between electric and combustion engine?
breischl · 2 years ago
News articles frequently say that lack of aircrew availability is a major cost and constraint for air travel currently. Wouldn't moving to smaller aircraft exacerbate that issue? Or do you think it won't be a problem?
stuart8ol · 2 years ago
Did someone say autonomous flight?? only kidding, we are not pursuing autonomous flight in the near future. It is something we hear a lot about too, especially after COVID. I am not sure what the answer is here but we do see it as a temporary thing and expect that the market will sort itself out. Whilst fully autonomous flight may not be our focus, we hope to do some things that can reduce the workload of the pilot and perhaps help reduce the training burden of crew making the pathway to that career more attractive. We are actually co-located with Australia's biggest Aviation training provider so we receive a lot of feedback in this regard.
w10-1 · 2 years ago
What are the runway requirements?

Can you comment on why not go down e.g., to a 10-passenger like the Pilatus (that lands on a 3000' runway)? It seems like the smaller planes straddle the private/commercial line, while a 50-passenger plane commits you to airline buyers. (i.e., even if not optimal for hydrogen electric, would a smaller-capacity target market be more commercially viable and diversify the risk of long-term development?)

stuart8ol · 2 years ago
We will be basing our requirements broadly on the current Dash8-300, so we are targeting around 4000ft for the SA-1, but we still have a lot of work before that is validated. It is desirable for us to go with smaller planes as it is faster to market, much lower program costs but we just don't feel that it will have the same impact - both as a business and on carbon emissions. As you go smaller, some costs increase per passenger, like crew and engine maintenance start to dominate at that <12 seat size, and whilst the Pilatus PC-12 is a hugely popular plane, its just not something that could compete with the major single-aisle market. Accessing this market is what would give us the edge and really allow us to build an unusually high number of planes.
lambdatronics · 2 years ago
Thanks stuart8ol for all the detailed answers in this thread. I learned several new things today (use of compressors for fuel cells to increase power density, logic of airplane sizes). This is the stuff I come to HN for! Also cool to see you using H3X motors - I remember their launch here, I was excited for them.

Good luck decarbonizing aviation!

stuart8ol · 2 years ago
My pleasure! Yeah working with the H3X team has been great. We are going to have them out at the airport before the end of the year, letting them run some tests on our set up. Will be fun.
fransje26 · 2 years ago
> [..] to design a low cost, 50-seat aircraft that can replace a significant portion of the ubiquitous single-aisle (e.g. Boeing 737)

If your marketing strategy is to frontally target one of the big 2, be prepared to suffer and be in a world of pain. From the stories I've heard, Boeing tends to take that very personally and will do anything in their power to see you fail. And although I have not directly heard similar stories from Airbus, it's possibly safe to assume that they are also not choirboys..

Nevertheless, cool approach. Good luck to you.

local_crmdgeon · 2 years ago
50 seats doesn't compete with 737s, it barely competes with ERJs. That's not a big airplane.

Also outside the union scope clauses. It's a good place to start.

mysterydip · 2 years ago
Honestly I'd rather they target the regional "puddle jumper" aircraft. Shorter runs would be an easier goal to achieve, and IMHO if there was a jet that allowed for more legroom/cargo space with less operating cost everyone would jump on it.

I'm close to two regional airports so 99% of my flying is a small jet to a hub and back again, and it's definitely the worst part of the trip.

icy_deadposts · 2 years ago
Will you use electric motor from your previous company magnix? how do those motors compare to this other YC company h3x that is making electric motors for planes? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26224709
stuart8ol · 2 years ago
Not this time around! We have selected H3X as our supplier for the motor for our tech demo and have signed an LOI for them to supply motors for our B1900D-HE retrofit aircraft. I would say that magniX has a more mature product and is further along the path to certification and its flown many of the recent and impressive electric aircraft first flights, including our competitor Universal Hydrogen. I'll always have a soft spot for the magni650, but at the end of the day, weight is critical on an aircraft and H3X are showing us a lighter product. We have a good relationship with H3X and have confidence that they will be able to meet the cert criteria in our timelines.
jmoorebeek · 2 years ago
This sounds like a great proposal, and those 50-seat aircraft are the backbone of the mountain communities I grew up around in the PNW. Is there any loss in effectiveness in using standard atmospheric air (thanks to N2 and other non-oxygen components of air)? What do you do with the resultant H2O when the reaction is complete?
stuart8ol · 2 years ago
Yeah using standard air gives you a performance hit - but it is preferred to carrying around pure oxygen from a weight standpoint. We just exhaust the H20 from the aircraft. There are other things you can do, such as condense and capture, but everything comes with a performance hit that we don't think is worth it.
p1mrx · 2 years ago
> Is there any loss in effectiveness in using standard atmospheric air

> What do you do with the resultant H2O

I can't imagine why an aircraft would ever want to carry its own oxygen supply, and capture the byproduct. Oxygen is heavy. Are you thinking of a spacecraft?

Qwertious · 2 years ago
>Oxygen is heavy.

More specifically, hydrogen has an atomic weight of 1, whereas oxygen has an atomic weight of 16. For producing H20, that means you would have to carry 8x your hydrogen's weight in oxygen, if you don't use atmospheric oxygen.