Readit News logoReadit News
Posted by u/edreichua 2 years ago
Launch HN: Stellar Sleep (YC S23) – An app that helps people with insomnia
Hi HN - We’re Ed and George, the team behind Stellar Sleep (https://stellarsleep.com/). We spent the past 1.5 years developing an app that helps people break the insomnia cycle using psychology.

Insomnia has been a personal struggle for both of us. George’s insomnia led to him quantifying his sleep for the last 7 years and making questionable life choices like wearing orange (blue-light blocking) goggles to evening social events.

I (Ed) suffered from chronic insomnia for over a year and tried everything from cutting coffee, blocking blue light, to taking melatonin and antihistamine, but couldn’t find anything that worked. It took an immense amount of energy for me to perform even the most mundane of tasks, such as doing my laundry or ordering groceries. At night, I felt overwhelming loneliness and resentment as I lay in bed wide awake, mindlessly scrolling through reddit and browsing HN in the middle of the night. I even bought a $500 research-grade EEG device to track my sleep, which was honestly kind of depressing because it showed that I was sleeping less than 4 hours per night for weeks straight.

When I finally decided to see a sleep specialist, I was put on a 3-month long waiting list. Eventually, I was able to get my insomnia treated. That finally helped. But it also made me realize that the same therapy that I received could be delivered online—there is no reason why anyone should have to wait 3 months to get treatment. George and I both have experience in digital health, so we decided to partner with sleep experts to create Stellar Sleep.

People with chronic insomnia often receive inadequate care advice. They’re told to try cutting back on coffee, meditate more, or make their bedroom darker, when chronic insomnia is often rooted in deeper, psychological issues (e.g., financial anxiety, workplace stress…etc.). In fact, “present research [now] supports the view that sleep is causally related to mental health difficulties” (Sleep Medicine Reviews, Dec 2021, doi: 10.1016/j.smrv.2021.101556). This matches up with what we observe—over 50% of our users reported that they have been diagnosed with depression, anxiety or other mental health conditions. Stellar Sleep uses psychology to help chronic insomniacs get their lives back.

We start by understanding a person’s immediate sleep-related challenges and providing them with practical strategies for dealing with them. Then, we drill down on the underlying psychological drivers of a person’s chronic insomnia and create a program to resolve those drivers one by one. Participants spend 5-10 minutes per day completing modules in the Stellar Sleep app.

We launched last August, and have already helped over 10,000 patients improve their sleep permanently. Here’s how one of our customers, Victoria, describes her experience:

I’ve had insomnia for about 5 years. I was at the point of desperation, willing to try anything. Insomnia feels very lonely. It’s 2am and your spouse is asleep. You’re very alone with your anxious thoughts. About the mortgage rates changing. About all the things you have to do tomorrow without any sleep. It feels like you’re trapped and alone.

After starting Stellar Sleep I’ve now started sleeping better for the first time in 5 years. I’ve gotten hope back that I can be normal. Most people who sleep well don’t worry about sleep. A good night’s sleep should just be normal.

We have strong clinical data showing that we're just as effective as in-person treatment and have a year-long clinical study running with Harvard Medical School / Brigham & Women’s Hospital paid for by the State of Massachusetts and the US Department of Commerce. On average, our users sleep 74 minutes longer than before and spend 52% less time awake in the middle of the night.

If you have trouble with sleep, try our app and let us know what you think! If you have any questions, please feel free to ask and we will be happy to answer them. We look forward to hearing your comments and experiences!

P.S. Here's our FAQ page (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) since so many of you asked about pricing

tomcam · 2 years ago
Signed up, paid (or donated, not sure how it works) maximum amount for the app. It’s about $18 for a trial period, then something like $200 per 3 months after the trial. Dirt cheap if it helps. I average less than 2 hours of sleep a night. Some notes.

* They start with a questionnaire about your sleep. But that seems to be like those deceptive political ads that look like a questionnaire but are just fundraising clickbait, because…

* After paying I had to fill out a nearly identical questionnaire. Hey, fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you fucking pricks. You just charged me money to waste my fucking life energy. Hey, did I mention I have sleep problems?

* The app provides some version of cognitive behavioral therapy via insulting cartoons. The main therapist or narrator or whatever is the most goddamn condescending talking cartoon owl I can imagine.

My sleep problems are no joke and being talked down to by an owl animated by a $75 Fiverr gig does not make me feel like a valued customer.

I’m desperate enough to go through with this but it’s not an auspicious start.

H8crilA · 2 years ago
I have nothing to do with the product, and I understand the frustration. But if you sleep 2hrs/day you should probably be in a (psychiatric) hospital instead of trying apps. That is very severe, and likely caused by a significant (mental) disorder.

Also, as a side note, cognitive behavioral therapy may feel like it is infantlizing you because it is digging up stuff that an adult should be able to understand and process more or less effortlessly on their own. But that's kind of the point of that therapy.

tomcam · 2 years ago
All good points. I’m seeing my primary care physician with data from Fitbit the first time next week. Normally they just prescribed different sleep drugs, but none does anything for me. I think that up to this point, they probably assumed I was exaggerating the issues.
tomcam · 2 years ago
I am open to recommendations of psychiatric hospitals that have effective sleep programs. Can you name any?
neilv · 2 years ago
This sounds like helpful critique, but you might want to edit out the part about horses.
tomcam · 2 years ago
I meant every word. It was exactly what I felt seeing my precious hours on this earth vaporizing to no good end.
johnsimer · 2 years ago
These are the same forms a sleep doc putting you on CBD-I will have you fill out.

Except they will charge you a lot more money, have you come to the office and have you fill out the same form 3 times a row (online, then at the office, then verbally while talking to doctor) in typical doctor’s office fashion

tomcam · 2 years ago
I have never been condescended to more than by that fucking owl
anagri · 2 years ago
++

good problem to solve, nice personal story, but disappointed it is translating into clickbait+data scraping

tomcam · 2 years ago
How so?
smallerfish · 2 years ago
From a pricing perspective, I think your incentives are misaligned with your users', which is a problem.

On a monthly model, you want users to keep renewing. However, users want their insomnia to be cured quickly.

What about flat pricing instead? 7 days free to get over the pricing friction, $150 to purchase a license to the customized program, possibly with a fairly weak warranty (minimum 10% improvement in sleep time in the first 6 months or your money back.)

Now your incentives are the same - get them "fixed" as quickly as possible and off the platform (and obviously upselling them on affiliate/related stuff if happy.)

georgewangsf · 2 years ago
Thank you for sharing your perspective on our pricing model. I genuinely appreciate that feedback.

We actually started our beta launch with a one-off pricing model. We only moved to the monthly model because we discovered through feedback from our beta users that chronic insomnia is fundamentally different from occasional sleep problems or light sleeping issues. Instead, chronic insomnia often comes from deep-rooted psychological factors, like unresolved anxiety, chronic stress, or burnout. These underlying issues can't typically be addressed with short-term solutions or quick fixes.

That's precisely why we believe a one-off program might not provide the continuous support and adaptability required to address such nuanced/varied problems. Our monthly model actually creates a strong incentive for us to provide a highly effective product. After all, no one is going to keep paying us if our product doesn't continue to help them. As a result, we continuously invest a ton of resources into developing new, top-notch clinical content, make it incredibly engaging via animated videos, and are always refining our offerings based on user feedback and the latest research.

gr0wthhack3r · 2 years ago
(Disclaimer: I joined the Stellar Sleep team after they got into YC, partly because I also had insomnia for many years and went through a full $1000+ in-person CTB-I treatment regimen which helped quite a bit)

To add to George's point, people w/ chronic insomnia (like myself) had gotten this stage of consistent poor sleep after many month or years of negative behavioral/psychological conditioning. To see permanent improvement, it'll also take many months of positive conditioning. And there will be occasional relapses (due to new triggers, etc). And this is the case even if you go through a very good in-person CTB-I program that costs thousands of dollars.

Our pricing model (quarterly, and in the future, monthly) is tailored toward the changing needs of our users. The goal is to equip our patients with an arsenal of tools to manage their sleep problems depending on the root cause, and help them recover from relapses more quickly when they need it, with similar efficacy as seeing an in-person specialist at a fraction of the cost.

xyzal · 2 years ago
No price information upfront, only shown after a lengthy quiz to ensure proper sunken cost while making the decision wether to buy or not. IMO disgusting.

Also, that fake loading bar while "building your personalized program" is cringe.

You had an opportunity to make your part in making the web a nice place again, yet you failed.

anagri · 2 years ago
++

wonderful personal story, but doesn't look like it is translating 100% into empathy.

d--b · 2 years ago
Hey there. It’s 4am, just woke up. I have been insomniac for a while now. But I have this kind if insomnia where I have no trouble at all falling asleep in the evening. I just wake up early. Way too early. And then I can’t go back to sleep. I don’t think I am anxious at all. I just stay there in my bed not doing much not thinking much. Usually I can do stuff, and then go back to sleep around 8am for a couple hours, which isn’t really compatible with having young kids and a job.

Can your app help me? Or is it made to help some other kind of insomnia?

jlpom · 2 years ago
I have the same issue after an acute long term sleep deprivation (slept 9 hours in 3 days with nearly no REM) 8 months ago. It turns out it damaged my thalamus (which is responsible for the wake-sleep alternance). Nothing can be done (at least currently) which is quite depressing, so I cope by taking long acting benzos which allow me to sleep 5-6 hours. From my research it also entice decreased ability to create « sleep spindle », if your sleep is also not qualitative and you’re not stressed, this may be an indication this is the same cause and you may want to see a neurologist.
edreichua · 2 years ago
Agreed! Definitely talk to your physician if you're unsure! Not all chronic sleep issues are psychological in nature.
bwech · 2 years ago
I have the same problem. I can’t speak to this app but I used to be up for at least 2 hours reading on my phone finally falling asleep when I need to get up. What has been working for me the past few months are podcasts. Most times I’m back out in < 1 min. I really like Fall of Civilizations. In a distant second place would be Boring Books for Bedtime or Bedtime with Wikipedia. Really anything that doesn’t have loud noises or ads in the middle that you find soothing.

But yes, not waking up at all at 4am would be great.

gerad · 2 years ago
I’ve been self medicating with podcasts to solve this exact issue for 5-6 years. I’d advise trying to wean yourself off it before it goes on too long. I now have tinnitus from the earbuds in my ears at night.
hirvi74 · 2 years ago
While we are on the topic of helpful sleep podcast, here I two I used to use:

Sleep With Me

https://www.youtube.com/@Sleepwithmepodcast

Jason Stephenson's Sleep Meditations

https://www.youtube.com/@jasonstephensonmeditation

edreichua · 2 years ago
Insomnia is defined as trouble falling asleep, or staying asleep. In your case, it seems like the latter. Our app might be able to help, but it also seems like you might be experiencing bi-phasic sleep which is more common than you imagine. Sleep restriction therapy (which begins in the second week of our program) might be able to help you consolidate your sleep into a narrower window if that's ideal for you. I would also recommend that you talk to your physician, especially if you have existing medical conditions. Hope you find a way to resolve/ manage your sleep issue!
neilv · 2 years ago
You've ruled out that it's not just (what I've read was normal for some of our ancient ancestors) waking up for an hour in the middle of the night, to tend the campfire or whatever, and then go back to sleep?
d--b · 2 years ago
No I did not rule that out. Problem is I rarely have campfires that need tending to.
dvasdekis · 2 years ago
I have this. But every time I go on holiday (like, proper leave the city holiday) it goes away immediately.

I believe it's stress related for me. Meditation and sleep hygiene works, but nothing else so far. YMMV, good luck.

slothtrop · 2 years ago
Add it to the pile. I think this is an important issue, but I don't understand why devs are compelled to create apps when the goal is just telegraphing information, and you only need to do that once. That's what books are for. I guess you'd have to count on there being a demographic that only wants to absorb information through apps.

Much of the content is (and ought to be) freely available information anyway, at least for boilerplate CBT-i (see e.g. https://insomniasos.net/). Obfuscating what is the size of a buzzfeed article behind payments and apps to make a buck is absurd.

Seeing a professional is one option, but ymmv. GPs don't seem to know much about this and reflexively prescribe pills because that's what people want and expect of them. Sleep specialists can be good, but the source material behind their approach can be limited and dated (like CBT-i itself). What I did is read a pile of research articles (maniacally at first), and books. It's not for everyone, but you'll find more useful information than in glorified advertisements in google searches.

edreichua · 2 years ago
Thanks for the comment - I'm glad that you were able to find help online! Similar to you, I do consume a lot of content (and research articles) online, but to your point they are not for everyone. There's a lot of information online (some accurate, many not) that sometimes it's hard to tease out what's actually going to help especially for people who are sleep deprived. That's why we work with top sleep experts to create an app that users can trust, and we also conduct clinical studies with Harvard medical school/ Brigham's to validate our results.

That said, we do offer more than just information. We allow users to track their sleep on our app so we can customize our program. Each user goes through a personalized track based on their sleep habits. We also automatically calculate your sleep restriction window for you. We also have relaxation content that you can listen to right before you go to bed, a worry/ gratitude journal and a routine tracker.

ffhhttt · 2 years ago
> There's a lot of information online (some accurate, many not)

Books by (relatively) renowned/trustworthy experts are also a thing and they all cost less than your monthly subscription.

georgewangsf · 2 years ago
Books are a fantastic resource in this space. We made this into a 5-10 minute a day mobile app for a few reasons:

+ A lot of people don't have the time or patience to invest several hours into reading a book. They'd prefer things broken down into actionable steps. In fact, we've done a lot of product testing to figure out how to improve program efficacy and we found out that the shorter and more "bite-sized" we made our modules, the more willing our users were to follow them, and the better their result.

+ The big "open secret" in the sleep research community is that yes, CBT for insomnia is a great starting point, but it needs to be followed up with further psychology-based care. Stellar Sleep delivers CBT for insomnia-based programming initially, then transitions into continued psychology-based programming which sustains the results of the initial CBT for insomnia work.

BenGuz · 2 years ago
Cool idea - can you say more up front about how this works? I went through the (long) survey just to get a paywall with no information on what to expect.

Also, do you plan to offer a version of this for teenagers? I noticed the youngest age range is 20.

edreichua · 2 years ago
Yes of course. After you fill up the survey, we will be able to recommend a personalized program for you that's tailored to your sleep habits.

The way it works is everyday, you will spend 5 - 10 minutes completing modules related to sleep/ psychology. These modules can be video or text based and is based on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), which is the first-line treatment recommended by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine.

You also record your sleep on the app, so we can further personalize your program and also apply an algorithm to analyze your sleep patterns and adjust your bedtime automatically to improve your overall sleep quality.

You can learn more on https://stellarsleep.com/science.

Our app is recommended for 18yo and above. Hope this answers your question!

hmcq6 · 2 years ago
So for $63 a month customers can expect the app to:

- send them a daily quiz and youtube video

- suggest a bedtime

Is that an accurate summary?

mdekkers · 2 years ago
You are asking me to do a lot of work upfront before I get any kind of idea around costs. I couldn’t find any pricing information anywhere (except here in this thread) which is offputting to me. I didn’t fill in the quiz or survey or whatever it’s called, because why would I give info before you do?
shellfishgene · 2 years ago
I think these very long surveys for this kind of app are more geared towards getting people to sign up after investing so much time rather than actually helping the app to do its thing better.
tomcam · 2 years ago
A talking cartoon owl of sub-South Park quality tells you how to manage your life.

Wish I were kidding.

polonbike · 2 years ago
Same here. It does mention a daily email with advice and strategies, but I also feel like the paywall should appear after one week, not before any possibility to try what you are offering
edreichua · 2 years ago
Thanks for the feedback! We're definitely interested in exploring a freemium model. Currently, what we offer is a 7-day trial, with the option of canceling anytime within the app itself. We also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee, so if you decide at any point within 30 days that the program is not for you, you can get a full refund, no questions asked.

Dead Comment

coremoff · 2 years ago
I noped out when you have to take the ISI to continue any further and then the only access to the results is via email (and wasn't a fan of the prechecked send-me-spam checkbox).
edreichua · 2 years ago
Thank you for your feedback! The reason why we needed your email is because we generate your sleep report and your personalized program asynchronously in our backend, but we can definitely consider showing some of the results immediately after the quiz without gating it. That being said, we promise not to spam (on average we send no more than 3 emails to users who stop engaging), and you can always unsubscribe from our mailing list.
coremoff · 2 years ago
I also think that this page shouldn't be burried in the knowledge base section: https://support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-m...

Given the dark pattern around email, I immediately assumed your monetization was going to be via selling ads or personal data - I see that might not be the case, however I think that not making this very clear from the start is consumer unfriendly, particularly when your customer base is a self-described sleep-deprived individual who probably has mental health issues (which describes me, FWIW).

georgewangsf · 2 years ago
Just to clarify, you do get your ISI score (and the sleep benchmarking information) immediately after you answer those relevant sections in the quiz, without having to enter your email. Entering your email basically just gives you the consolidated report in one place.
mtalantikite · 2 years ago
Do you have any links to the research behind these CBT-I interventions? I'm curious what treatment looks like. I had never considered that I may have insomnia until just now, as I fall asleep fast and usually only wake up once during the night. However, I often wake up groggy and not feeling refreshed. I started tracking my sleep a couple months ago with a series 8 Apple Watch and consistently see only 20-45 minutes in a "deep sleep" phase.

I'd totally pay for this if it's something that might work, but honestly am skeptical about it working for my particular sort of sleep pattern. Congrats on the launch!

edreichua · 2 years ago
Thanks! And yes, here are a few articles if you're interested:

[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/insomnia/in-d...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6796223/

There's also more information on https://stellarsleep.com/science.

If you don't think you have insomnia (you fall asleep fast and you stay asleep long enough), then you probably don't have chronic insomnia, which is what our app is designed for. That said, if you find yourself feeling groggy or not refreshed despite getting sufficient sleep, I would recommend that you talk to your physician. You might still find our app helpful (so give it a try and cancel if it doesn't work - we also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee), but just want to point out that our target audience is people with chronic insomnia.

fburnaby · 2 years ago
I have no expertise, but this is my sleep. It turns out I have sleep apnea. I can "sleep" for 8 hours, but it does very little good. With apnea, you wake up as much as a few times an hour, getting very little REM. It took me years to consider apnea because I'm thin and somewhat fit. But all sorts can have it.
edreichua · 2 years ago
Definitely recommend going to a sleep clinic and see a sleep specialist if you have untreated sleep apnea. I have friends with sleep apnea who managed to resolve their insomnia by using cpap machines (although it might take a while to get used to it). In some instances, surgery might help too.
phosphorco · 2 years ago
Mouth taping radically changed the quality of my sleep fwiw. Consistent nasal breathing is huge.