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Posted by u/taubek 2 years ago
Ask HN: How much of unlimited PTO do you use?
If you have unlimited PTO how much of it do you actually use? I can see how unlimited PTO can work if you are working on projects - you take time off between projects. But what if you are a team lead or if your job is infrastructure related? Do you have a team mate that covers for you and then you cover some other person when needed?
feoren · 2 years ago
It's all bullshit. When my company switched to "flexible time off", they also instated an annual goal for number of hours billed, and surprise surprise: to hit the annual goal, you have to take basically ZERO time off. Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority. Now it's zero. You cannot take time off and also hit your goal unless you work tons of overtime. It's all fucking bullshit and I'd be surprised if it's legal.

When in doubt, if some corporate executive wants to do it, 99% of the time it's to absolutely fuck you over as hard as possible. Corporate leadership at most companies in the U.S. are parasitic insects existing solely to suck the blood out of the company until their next spawning cycle when they sprout wings and fly off looking for another victim. Never doubt it.

simoncion · 2 years ago
> When my company switched to "flexible time off", they also instated an annual goal for number of hours billed, and surprise surprise: to hit the annual goal, you have to take basically ZERO time off. Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority. Now it's zero.

Does your company have any offices in California? Is this policy applied to those offices in California? If the answer to both questions is "yes", then have a coworker in California talk to a labor lawyer to see if California might consider this PTO policy wage theft.

(For context: California considers PTO to be part of your wage, and considers companies that attempt to weasel out of paying PTO to be engaging in wage theft. Based on what I've read California courts give "non-accrual"/"unlimited"/"flexible"/"whatever-they-are-called-these-days" PTO schemes _extra_ scrutiny, because those things hide all sorts of ways to deny workers the wages that they're owed.)

dathos · 2 years ago
What if you miss your goal? I mean if you wouldn’t lose your job just take 6-8 weeks to compensate for the loss of bonus
Fnoord · 2 years ago
A perfect recipe for burn-out. What is the burn-out rate in USA compared to Western EU?
Tade0 · 2 years ago
> Previously we earned 2 to 4 weeks depending on seniority.

Yikes. You really were expected to do 1900h+ per year previously and the current situation got even worse?

clnq · 2 years ago
2 to 4 weeks isn’t normal?
flashgordon · 2 years ago
The only company that I felt actually stood by this was linkedin. On top of their whole week off for July 4th and Christmas I actually observed people taking 1-1.5 weeks each quarter on average as part of flex time. Plus with "in days" (1 Friday each month to do absolutely anything including staying home) it was almost 8 weeks of leave each year. Not sure if things are the same now (this was until 2 years ago in the US). I doubt any other company was this generous.
whitemary · 2 years ago
If you live in the US, it's absolutely legal, and even if it's not then it doesn't matter because you live in the US under a dictator (your boss).
sfe22 · 2 years ago
Yeah, you nailed with the word choice here.

Dictator needs to be a ruler, that also you cannot get rid of. In most of the us you can ditch your boss tonight.

It looks like you want a real dictator to “protect” you from possible poor decisions you can make. Which is fine, just don’t get me and others like me involved please.

tanseydavid · 2 years ago
It so sad it's almost funny.

Have you heard the one about "our open office plan is meant to enhance the opportunities for collaboration?"

dougmwne · 2 years ago
What an incredibly sad question. People need breaks and rest. If you don’t get it for long enough, you will burn out. If your company isn’t taking your need to rest seriously, you should find a new job.

Unlimited PTO is mostly a scam. PTO had a real monetary value as part of a compensation package. Many companies will pay it out in cash when you leave. If PTO is “unlimited “ it basically means the company has decided to not compensate you with PTO. Since no one is “owed” PTO everyone starts treating it like something they don’t deserve and the company develops a culture of not taking time off.

Of course a company’s leadership could still strongly encourage time off in an “unlimited “ situation, but the easiest way to do that is to actually compensate people with PTO!

drewcoo · 2 years ago
> Many companies will pay it out in cash when you leave.

Depends where you are located.

https://gusto.com/resources/articles/hr/termination/pay-accr...

maccard · 2 years ago
I live in the UK with an unlimited PTO system. My partner works for a local company, so I ballpark try and match hers, but take an extra week or two per year depending. It's somewhere in the region of 40 days per year, plus the "holiday" closures.

I'm a lead _and_ I manage infrastructure. If you're a lead and your team can't handle you being out for a week then you need to spend more time leading and less time doing. Being out for longer requires active planning.

nvarsj · 2 years ago
Is that even legal in the UK? As far as I knew, UK has a statutory 20 days off for all salaried workers (28 with holidays). Is it 20 days off plus unlimited? Which isn't quite the same.
mrweasel · 2 years ago
Not sure how it would work in the UK, but you can do it in a country like Denmark, but you'd need to split the time in two. You're legally required to provide 25 days, and for that to make sense financially, the company needs to keep track of the first 25 days as these are "earned" at a rate of 2,3 per month (something like that). Beyond the 25 days, you can grants as many "ferie-fri" (vacation/time-off)-days as you like. Technically the company can tell you when to use those, normally between Christmas and New Years, but they can waive that right and let employees decide for themselves. If you don't use your time, you can lose it, after a 1.5 years for the first 25 and a year for the rest.

So I don't think it would be an issue in the UK either, but the company needs to do the accounting right.

revertmean · 2 years ago
The UK actually has a statutory 5.6 weeks - which is 28 days - for all full time employees. Most companies will split that as 20 days flexible leave plus 8 public holidays, but it's not a requirement.

Many companies offer better than that as an additional benefit. For example, I currently get 24 days + 9 public holidays (Scotland) for a total of 33 days. I think I get an additional day after I've been with the company 4 years.

maccard · 2 years ago
My contract says 20+bank holidays, but our internal policy says unlimited subject to local minimum requirements.

It's a small company, so it's an honour system. I've taken far more than my contractual minimum every year I've worked here, so having to get backpay or carry over hasn't come up just yet.

TheAceOfHearts · 2 years ago
If a company really believed in Unlimited PTO they would specify and require a minimum amount of PTO for all workers. That way everyone is able to take PTO without it feeling like they're shirking any duties. People in leadership positions should also visibly be taking PTO and setting an example for their workers.
MikeTheRocker · 2 years ago
I know of several smaller companies that do this. It's a great policy IMO.
sn9 · 2 years ago
Beyond the benefits of actually proving you give a damn about work-life balance, I suspect mandatory minimums of 4+ weeks of PTO force organizations to structure/hire/work in a way that makes everything more robust since you need to have people who can cover for others when they take time off or sick leave or just plain leave.

You can't silo information if the silo can go off grid for a month or more.

You can't have a dependency on a single individual without predictable and avoidable consequences, and what might have taken years to show up instead is obviously going to be you can see coming within the year.

Your SMEs and high performers won't feel the pressure to avoid taking time off, and they'll need to improve documentation and knowledge/skill sharing. Managers will have incentives to support that as well.

simmschi · 2 years ago
I'm not sure where you live, but 25 to 30 days seem to be the ballpark for a healthy life.

Here in Germany the minimal number of vacation days that have to be granted (by law) is 20 days, but it's rare to have that few days in knowledge worker positions.

Unless you're the CTO you should not really worry too much about a vacation replacement, isn't this your bosses responsibility?

Btw don't burn out by not taking vacation. Life is short. You will regret this when you get older.

wil421 · 2 years ago
I have 23 days plus 15 days for sick kids/family member and “unlimited” short term sick leave for myself. All at a telco in the US.

I turned down 2 other jobs that had unlimited PTO where you could really only get 2-3 weeks max.

lostlogin · 2 years ago
Do your number include sick leave? I’d assume that was a different PTO bucket.
carstenhag · 2 years ago
Some context for Germany: Before the probation period ends (usually 6 months), a company can fire you without any reason on 2 weeks notice. After that, it's very hard to fire someone for being sick.

Now to your question: 30 days is the norm for knowledge workers. Days off, including: when you are sick, when your kid is sick so you have to take care of them, special occasions such as death of a close relative, marriage, relocation) don't get counted on these 30 days at all.

pantalaimon · 2 years ago
Sick days are not vacation, you get to stay home for however long your doctor put on your sick note and health insurance will reimburse your employer.
Volundr · 2 years ago
A previous job had unlimited "dto" (discretionary time off). Before I accepted the job I told my manager I was currently getting 5 weeks PTO and asked if that would be inline with the expectation. He told me he saw no issue with me taking that much, or even somewhat more. Sure enough he never turned down a time off request. The closest he even came was making sure that someone was available to be on call thanksgiving and Christmas weeks.

It's not always bullshit. I actually kind of regret leaving that job for more money and the unlimited time off was a big factor. I went to only having a few weeks, accrued over the year and ended up having some major family issues that lead to me budgeting my PTO. I could've always taken unpaid time but I would never have even thought twice about taking the time with the DTO.

fullspectrumdev · 2 years ago
The company I work for instituted unlimited PTO recently.

It’s annoying, because under the previous system if I worked a weekend or public holiday, I’d get an extra concrete day to use. Now I don’t.

So by law in Ireland I have to take minimum 20 days PTO, and interestingly, there’s a little known rule that says I’ve to take 2 weeks off in a row as part of that.

Which I never twigged until recently when comparing the employee handbook to employment laws for fun. This rule is a blessing and a curse tbh.

This year so far I have taken about two actual days off, and I usually work on public holidays because I simply forget when they are.

kwyjibo_hunter · 2 years ago
At my current job the unlimited PTO has afforded me the ability to take more care of my health compared to previous jobs (with or without unlimited PTO). I’m much more inclined to take sick days and/or mental health days when I need them.

I also have to take a day off almost monthly for medical treatments. At a standard US job, I’d probably end up with 3 days of total annual PTO leftover, and I’d probably have to save the “sick days” (which don’t stick around too easily with my health issues).

At my current job, it only works because they’re not preventing us from taking the time (for now).