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Posted by u/skinsfan687 3 years ago
Ask HN: Paychecks from a failed startup?
Hey - I was recently laid off from an early stage start up (Pre-Series A) and haven't received my last two paychecks. Do I have any legal avenues to recoup these missed payments?

I've opened a case with the state DOL office but I'm worried the company will fold / file for bankruptcy. Does anyone have a similar experience? Any luck getting missed paychecks? Should I attempt to sue the founder?

JStanton617 · 3 years ago
Payroll is one of the very few (only?) things that "pierces the corporate veil" - that is, the principals / board members are personally liable even in the event of corporate bankruptcy.

You could engage a labor lawyer, but if this was pre-series A and the founder was self-funding, there might not be any personal assets there either.

If you think the folding of the company is in good faith, you might just want to take the loss on this one.

cogitoergofutuo · 3 years ago
> If you think the folding of the company is in good faith, you might just want to take the loss on this one.

This is astonishingly bad advice! It is the fundamental opposite of what you should do in this situation!

If you work for someone, you deserve to be paid for your work. Full stop. There are state agencies to assist with this exact situation that are funded by your tax dollars, avail yourself to them!

What you think happened to the company is immaterial. I am genuinely baffled by the phrase “folding of the company in good faith” as I can’t imagine a good faith reason to tell people to work for free based on how your feelings align in relation to a business entity.

The only people that would benefit from this becoming the norm would be con artist founders that are working to perfect an “Aww shucks, payroll is sooo hard for a smol bean like me!” excuse for getting folks to work for free.

I would also not work for anyone that would even slightly agree with this advice.

awaythrow98765 · 3 years ago
Actually, there is no "folding in good faith" in such like cases.

A company is bankrupt if a point in time can be foreseen, where the company can no longer pay its debtors (employees here are debtors, sometimes even a higher-priority class of such). And while one can argue about the "foreseen" part, e.g. by saying "I did reasonably expect that incoming payment to arrive, which didn't". As soon as you were unable to pay a debt once, or like here even twice, you are actually too late in declaring your bankruptcy. Which, in most jurisdictions, is a crime. And it certainly is in bad faith. If the company isn't actually bankrupt, could pay but won't, then it is also an act of bad faith.

itsthecourier · 3 years ago
I don't think there is something like good faith and failing to pay payroll. As an entrepreneur I have failed before and never have I considered payroll money as something I can use for other purposes.

Go for it, sue and put in jail whoever owes you payroll money. Jail is a very good motivator to pay what's owed.

Do not take this loss. You should if you are a founder and decided not to take salary, but as an employee this is unacceptable. That money is yours.

H8crilA · 3 years ago
I doubt you can go to jail for failing to pay money to another person or entity, except in very specific cases.
elefanten · 3 years ago
They absolutely shouldn’t “take the loss on this one”, what kind of an asinine comment is that?

OP performed labor at an agreed-upon rate. The hypothetical broke and failed founder should “take the loss”, even if it requires taking on further financial burdens.

Externalized risk is one of the most rampant and harmful moral hazards of this age.

dang · 3 years ago
Hey, can you please make your substantive points without name-calling or otherwise breaking the site guidelines?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

gred · 3 years ago
For what it's worth, I "took the loss" in a similar situation. The owner put everything he had into the business, it legitimately failed, and I didn't want to kick him while he was down. My financial situation was such that it didn't hurt me too badly. I could imagine pushing harder if the situation had been different, either on my end or on his.
DiggyJohnson · 3 years ago
The tone of this comment is completely out of line. We probably disagree on many things, yet your comment makes sense to me. So does the comment you're replying to.

It's not clear it's asinine: the cost of trying to recoup money from an entity that is completely out of money can very easily become not worth it.

paulajohnson · 3 years ago
I think the parent comment is about the likelihood of recovering enough money to make the exercise worthwhile, rather than the propriety of getting ripped off.
HWR_14 · 3 years ago
Payroll piercing the corporate veil must be a state-specific law.
lisasays · 3 years ago
Do I have any legal avenues to recoup these missed payments?

Absolutely. You can write the first 1-2 "demand letters" yourself (look up the term for easily findable guidance on how to do this). In particular you can remind them as to which legal codes apply in your state and what they say about default payment terms.

Be sure to put in a firm deadline ("within 15/30 days") - no need to include additional threats of what you'll do after that point. Just be clear about the deadline.

And in the meantime find yourself a lawyer to start firing off more formal-sounding letters (likely costing 250-400 a pop) + to provide guidance on what to do after that. You'l have to dip into your pocket a bit, but that's the cost of doing business.

yamtaddle · 3 years ago
> no need to include additional threats of what you'll do after that point.

This is good advice in general, for formal communication.

Do: State what you want to happen, when, how, and why, plainly and up-front; briefly state any directly relevant and necessary information.

Do not: Hedge; express uncertainty (if they think you're wrong, that's up to them to figure out—cut the "maybe's" and the "I think"s, et c.); apologize ("sorry to bother you, but..."); threaten; whine; rant.

Request, state, and do. Do not threaten. Threatening is what you get other people to do—lawyers, elected representatives, union reps, state regulatory bodies, et c. If you threaten, you just come off like a weak blowhard. [EDIT] Take note that when those others threaten it's inherent. A lawyer doesn't have to say "or we'll sue your ass". If you are personally threatening, you don't need to threaten. It's implied. If your ordinary correspondence doesn't carry an implied threat, it's because you're not personally threatening, and you need someone who is to do it instead. That's why explicit threats from Joe Blow tend to come off as weak—the actually-threatening are threatening when they simply make requests and state their case, and if they rise to actually making a threat, it's damn scary, because it's credible. If your request isn't threatening, your threats aren't either. By avoiding weak language and not falling into the amateurish trap of leading with threats, you raise your threat level, because you come off as someone competent enough to know all this.

Concise, direct, clear language comes off as more-powerful and "higher" than wishy-washy language and threats, and it's easier to understand, besides.

DyslexicAtheist · 3 years ago
> You can write the first 1-2 "demand letters" yourself

it also has the potential to make you look like you can't afford a professional. An unhinged (reducto ad absurdum) version of this would be a person who insists they defend themselves in court.

I get this is well intentioned and the claim might be small (few months salary). But it's not professional looking at it from the perspective of a judge or lawyer.

yamtaddle · 3 years ago
A brief initial request letter makes sense. Might get it sorted that way, no need for a lawyer. But it'd need to be a nice, concise, direct one, written in the correct register.

I'd agree that going to two is too much. The second notice should be on a lawyer or regulator's letterhead.

paulcole · 3 years ago
> Be sure to put in a firm deadline ("within 15/30 days")

Why would you give them this much time? In the US if you’re fired/laid off you generally are legally due your last check within a day or so.

red-iron-pine · 3 years ago
This varies by state, and by if you are fired, quit, or are terminated for cause (which is different than being fired).

Usually it's 72 hours, or even the same day if fired.

I'd agree with the parent poster: demand 72 hours for the check, or else give me a guaranteed date within a week. If they can't give you the check or dates, or if they miss the date, immediately escalate to state / legal / etc. resources.

skinsfan687 · 3 years ago
Thank you for this advice - I've started to reach out to some lawyers to get some direction.

I'll also write a formal email to the Founder to understand his intent.

Laaas · 3 years ago
> more formal-sounding letters

Do you really need a lawyer for this? Pretending to be a lawyer and seeming that way to the other party is more than enough usually.

jcranmer · 3 years ago
Demand letters can have legal repercussions, for example, resetting the clock on how long they have to try to pay up before you can initiate legal action to recover money. (And the precise repercussions are highly dependent on whose law applies!)
bagels · 3 years ago
Don't pretend to be a lawyer. That is not legal in many places.
lisasays · 3 years ago
"Pretending to be a lawyer" was Step 1.

If that doesn't do the trick (and you don't want to wait indefinitely) - it generally pays to get a lawyer.

jstanley · 3 years ago
Writing a first draft yourself and then asking ChatGPT "please rewrite this text to sound more like a lawyer wrote it" might work quite well.
neilv · 3 years ago
If employer doesn't come through promptly, and money is tight, a local legal clinic might help.
issa · 3 years ago
It's really hard to "accidentally" not make payroll. This shouldn't be something that sneaks up on you. If you feel the founder deserves the benefit of the doubt, I would suggest reaching out to them first before doing anything else. But if that doesn't work it's really just a question of what you want out of the situation. You will probably never see the money regardless (lawyer/court costs, squeezing blood from a stone, etc) but it might be worth it to you to make the (very valid) point anyway.
DyslexicAtheist · 3 years ago
i know an infinite number of people who got stiffed and have myself been on the receiving end plenty times. this isn't an accident it's the norm wit coked-up "fake it till you make it" start-up culture. 99% of the industry is toxic and it's not just entrepreneurs that fail but everyone who drank the cool aid ;)
icedchai · 3 years ago
In over 20 years, I only ran into this with one startup. The founder ran out of money... twice. He was a nice guy so I gave him the benefit of the doubt this wouldn't happen again. Big mistake. It did... a few short months later.

The company was eventually "acquired" for pennies-on-the-dollar in a fire sale. Early investors got nothing. Of course, like many failed "acquisitions", this is seen as a success on his LinkedIn page.

lathiat · 3 years ago
This kind of thing is generally both country and state specific. It’s likely the relevant state regulator would have some info on this on their website.
Animats · 3 years ago
> This kind of thing is generally both country and state specific.

Very. It ranges from "you're a creditor in the bankruptcy" to "CEO, you're under arrest".

vegancap · 3 years ago
Going through something similar now, all my bills and direct debits bounced today because I wasn't paid and my reminder message was ignored. I guess it's always a risk. I have no legal recourse because I didn't have a contract (was told it was going to be sent over to me, but never was, which seems intentional now come to think of it...).

If you have a contract, you might have some legal recourse you could pursue if it does turn out they're out of runway. But, if they're not making any effort to explain the situation to you, i.e., keeping you in the dark, then just get out of there. This is your livelihood at the end of the day, how you pay your bills. Don't accept it. Do what you can legally (depending on your contract) to recover what you can and move on asap.

jcranmer · 3 years ago
> I have no legal recourse because I didn't have a contract

IANAL, but you may still have a contract even if you don't have a signed, written contract. Your ability to demonstrate the terms of the contract, and mutual assent to those terms, will be negatively impacted, but legal avenues may still exist.

vegancap · 3 years ago
I can certainly prove I did a whole bunch of work for a fairly lengthy period, so could be something worth me exploring. Thanks for that! Was about to just write it off
pjdemers · 3 years ago
I don't know other states, but in California, managers are personally liable for paying their employees. The penalties are steep. If the company doesn't pay you, anyone who knew that employees were working without the company's ability to pay them has committed a felony and either must pay back wages or will go to prison. You will get paid. I've had managers tell me the company was broke, and to go home right now, then quit themselves right there.
ghaff · 3 years ago
Things got a bit sketchy for me a couple of times with bounced checks and unpaid checks (due to confusion because everything was falling apart). I was eventually paid but there were probably some bounced check charges in one case. Mostly if everything seems in good faith, I'd probably try to collect and, if you're ghosted, probably chalk it up to not getting blood from a rock and move on. My guess is you'd put a lot of energy in and get nothing.
dumbfounder · 3 years ago
The name implies you are in the DC area, is that right? The lack of clarity on this makes it tough for anyone to really give pointed advice. Is this for severance? Did they fail to pay you before they laid you off? Did you talk to anyone at the company? What did they say? How long has it been? Is it possible it's a mistake? Has this happened to others that were laid off? Of course you have legal avenues, but more info is needed to give proper advice.
DyslexicAtheist · 3 years ago
> The name implies you are in the DC area, ...

skins fan might refer to this show https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0840196/ which is a British drama series

having worked with Brit, Irish, US, Oz & Kiwi entrepreneurs and also with companies in Europe I got stiffed on my invoices many times - it was a hard lesson.

If the founders first language is English you're a lot more likely to get stiffed on your work. I've learned to factor this risk into my quotes over the years.

On the other hand, the number of times I got stiffed by companies on the continent is close to nil. "Close" because the one time it did happen the CEO was a Brit. Not paying bills when you're in trouble isn't just an American thing. It is a problem with many companies when they're run by native English speakers (US, UK, CA, Australia, NZ).

But you can easily spot the bad apples with some experience: They will never agree on a 30% upfront of your fees. Not because they don't trust you with your work but because they expect to get stiffed the same way they stiff people.

skinsfan687 · 3 years ago
Thanks for the response. Yes, I am located in Washington DC, but was working remotely for a company based in Kentucky.

The employer failed to make payroll for two straight pay cycles before deciding to layoff the entire engineering department. Impacted employees include my boss, my peer engineers and other W2s at the former company.

The CEO mentioned numerous times they would make payroll but continuously missed timelines before ultimately laying us off via Slack. We haven't received any formal termination/severance documents.

dumbfounder · 3 years ago
Sounds like some shady bullshit to me! Take quick action before there is no money there.