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palotasb · 3 years ago
> [...] A would be read as “A per se A”, [...] I, similarly, would be “I per se I” [...] O would be “O per se O”

That's incorrect, these would have been respectively "per se A", "per se I", and "per se O." The confusion is coming from how the ampersand was listed out in the alphabet:

> The alphabet is A, ..., X, Y, Z, and per se and.

That doesn't mean "&" was spelled out as "and per se and" separately. The first and is because it's the last item in a list in a sentence. Only the second and is part of the full phrase of per se and. If you use it as a single item in a sentence, it works like this:

> The last letter of the alphabet is per se and.

The last sentence of the article:

> the alphabet once ended with a final “X, Y, Z, and & per se &”.

Should be:

> the alphabet once ended with a final “X, Y, Z, and per se &”.

bazoom42 · 3 years ago
Thank you. I was really confused by the article. This makes a lot more sense.
smcin · 3 years ago
Well, by the 19th-century mainly in (British?) English, according to those sources. By then had been abandoned in other European languages.

Britannica [0] says:

- invented by Romans c. 1st century BCE as a shorthand for 'et', can be seen from Pompeii

- was [also] prevalent in German manuscripts throughout the 19th century.

- gradually abandoned by most [non-English] languages by the end of the 19th century, with the notable exception of Gaelic, where it's also still used [as an evolution of the rival Tironian symbol].

and [1] has a really interesting illustration by Houston (1957) citing Tschichold (1953), showing the evolution of the ampersand over 2000 years, from Pompeii through 8th-C Merovingian Latin to modern-day.

Latterly got pressganged by our C/C++ brethren.

[0]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ampersand

[1]: https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2020/12/ampersand-2.html

carlmr · 3 years ago
> - was [also] prevalent in German manuscripts throughout the 19th century.

It's still common enough in Germany, but mostly used for company names if you combine two names. E.g. Müller & Schmidt. Which is why it's also called the "Kaufmanns Und", the "merchants' and".

azepoi · 3 years ago
also sometimes called "Et commercial" in french, so "commercial and". The official name is esperluette which has a nice and probably similar history as ampersand.
croisillon · 3 years ago
though german companies love to write themselves Müller + Schmidt

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TRiG_Ireland · 3 years ago
The Tironian et is still preferred in Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

Here's an example from Ireland: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pay_and_Display_sign...

(I don't know about the other Gaelic language, Manx, but I suspect that they prefer the ampersand. Their orthography is more English-like generally.)

smcin · 3 years ago
Yes, hadn't known where it came from until this discussion.

Another prominent use in Irish was the old pre-1984 P&T / P⁊Ꞇ (Posts and Telegraphs) logo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_for_Posts_and_Telegra...

Image of sign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Irish_Post_%26_Telegraphs...

Another old P⁊T anti-vandalism sign: https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/506162445597268179/

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emersion · 3 years ago
To anyone trying to figure out what the missing "Eyetests were a lot easier in the 1920s" image was referring to, here's a link to an archived version:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191128021121/http://dlewis.net...

themodelplumber · 3 years ago
Fascinating!

I can just hear the lettering conversation...

"We need a font with a TON of contrast for this. The thin parts should be negligible. Hairline.

People should get to the R, reflect back on what they now realize was an H, and then start thinking about a more appropriate career"

tudorw · 3 years ago
did they just hold it nearer or further away?
mgaunard · 3 years ago
I think the bigger problem is that you can predict what a letter is from its position regardless of whether you can read it.
mdswanson · 3 years ago
If you like this, I'd highly recommend the book, "Shady Characters: The Secret Life of Punctuation, Symbols, and Other Typographical Marks": https://a.co/d/iqGNnyi
weinzierl · 3 years ago
Not on punctuation specifically but otherwise highly recommended Robert Bringhurst's "The Elements of Typographic Style" discusses the ampersand and its usage in great depth. Somehow Bringhurst's obsession with this character is almost uncanny.
newqer · 3 years ago
I'm getting The Da Vinci Code vibes.
blowski · 3 years ago
As in you think it’s a load of curious but bullshit stories?
Timwi · 3 years ago
In German, the & character is known as “kaufmännisches Und”, or “tradesman’s and”. For this reason, I used to believe that ampersand was really “amper’s and” and amper was somehow an obsolete word for tradesman.

Needless to say, that it not the case, but it felt very convincing.

augusto-moura · 3 years ago
In some latin languages we have a similar modern name ("e comercial" in portuguese, "y comercial" in spanish, "E commerciale" in italian), literally meaning "commercial 'and'". I'm not sure about the history about it though
hoosieree · 3 years ago
Amper (noun): one who amps.

Today we use the term "influencer".

Did you know that the term "computer" used to refer to an occupation? The same used to be true for audio amplifiers. It was a role traditionally occupied by the loudest shouter in the village.

andrepd · 3 years ago
In Portuguese it's the "commercial and".
weinzierl · 3 years ago
I thought the same way. It's kind of so obvious but also so wrong.
joosters · 3 years ago
I was visiting the V&A museum the other day and came across some stone typography carvings by Eric Gill - they include A-Z, 0-9 and also just &. I wonder if this is why? (However, the ampersand is still very much separate from the alphabet on the stone)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gill#/media/File:Eric_Gil...

iainmerrick · 3 years ago
What a beautiful carving! I love the Q’s and R’s.
ars · 3 years ago
I'm an advocate of bringing back thorn (Þ, þ) to replace the th, and yogh (Ȝ ȝ) to replace gh in words.

No need for unnecessary digraphs with special pronunciation. I'm sure we could find other letters for the rest of them.

carlmr · 3 years ago
>I'm sure we could find other letters for the rest of them.

Looking at the number of pronunciations for the same letter sequence in English you'd probably need an alphabet with hundredsof letters to make this happen.

At this point you can just switch to IPA instead.

kristopolous · 3 years ago
I'm going to plug my friends project about this https://www.ekalipi.org/

Don't ask me to defend it though. Good friend but not my project

He was a software dev for like 45 years if you can tell from the site design

zerocrates · 3 years ago
The "and per se and" origin sure feels like the kind of folk etymology that ultimately doesn't really have anything backing it up.

But as far as I can see there really isn't any controversy over it.

croisillon · 3 years ago
since the french version esperluette comes from occitan "es per lou et", meaning "is for the and", i would say it is plausible