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Posted by u/jmoorebeek 3 years ago
Launch HN: OutSail (YC W23) – Wingsails to reduce cargo ship fuel consumption
Hi HN! I’m Joseph, and along with Arpan and Bailey we are the founders of OutSail Shipping (https://outsailshipping.com/). We’re building a sail the size of a 747 that rolls up into a shipping container. When deployed, it will generate thrust from the wind to reduce the fuel consumption of a cargo ship. An array of these devices will reduce fuel consumption on ships by up to 20%. These sails are easily stowed and removed to cause no interference with cargo operations. Here’s a short video showing our prototype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUpVqzpym54.

Sails powered ships for millennia; but then the convenience of energy-dense fuels displaced sails. As ship speeds eventually exceeded wind speeds, the consensus became that sails had no place in shipping and were relegated to hobbyists and sport. Fast forward a century and a half, and maritime shipping, like all other industries, is facing a reckoning to mitigate the greenhouse gasses produced by their activities.

The International Maritime Organization (IMO) has introduced new regulations which use a vessel’s Carbon Intensity Indicator (CII) to grade ships. This grading scale becomes more aggressive over time, and any ship with a poor grade must take corrective action. The corrective actions can be as non-invasive as reducing speed (aka: slow steaming) or as extreme as a retrofit to use a different, cleaner fuel source. This costs millions and takes a ship out of commission for months, and it’s difficult to ensure your (now more expensive) fuel is available at every port of call. Ship owners are hedging their bets that slow steaming will dominate their future, with ship order books full to reflect the increased capacity needed when containers take 20% longer to cross the ocean.

Or option three. There is sufficient wind on the ocean to power the entire shipping industry, if you’re willing to grab it. Wind Assisted Ship Propulsion (WASP) devices can be used as a corrective action to improve a vessel’s CII rating, without reducing ship speed or changing the route. In other words, a return of sails.

We are hardware engineers with over two decades of experience between us, working at Tesla, SpaceX, JPL, Relativity, and some startups. The idea for OutSail came from Arpan and Joseph getting coffee after work one day. When we asked each other “What would you do if you weren’t building satellites?” maritime cargo came up from both sides; Arpan from having studied the industry for opportunities to reduce emissions, and Joseph from a love of hydrodynamics and maybe too many sea-shanties. Bailey and Arpan, meanwhile, had been looking at working on bicycling infrastructure. What brought the three of us together was actually a Dungeons & Dragons game where we realized we made a good team! We settled on OutSail as a good fit for our hardware hacking mentality, trading in our druids staffs for spanners.

Aerodynamically, sails are simply vertical wings. Wind blowing across the vessel causes the sail to generate lift and drag, and the resultant vector has some forward component to pull the ship through the water. However, if the wind comes from an angle too close to the direction of travel, there is no thrust. As an added complication, the sail only sees the relative wind. If the ship travels faster, the wind will appear to come from closer and closer to the direction of travel, even if the true wind is coming from perpendicular to your course! Despite this, standard sails can still produce forward thrust as long as the wind is at least 20 degrees off from directly in front of the vessel. This is how our sails can still save power, even on a fast moving vessel.

There are many sail technologies out there. A common question we get asked is “Are you going to use flettner rotors/suction airfoils?”. Both of these technologies use power supplied by the ship to increase the lift produced by a surface; rotor-sails spin, and suction airfoils…suck? Each of these have a place, especially at low vessel speeds. But our customers ask us for a solution that works for container ships cruising at the relatively high speed of 22kt. At these speeds, the relative wind is almost always ahead of you, so lift/drag becomes more important. Powered sails suffer from poor lift/drag, both from the high induced drag from very high lift coefficients, and system losses from drawing on ship’s power. So no we are not going with flettner rotors/suction airfoils. While they are the new exciting technology on the block, if you factor in their power usage and high drag ratio, they are just not as practical as a simple sail.

So now that we’ve given a general summary of sailing, it’s time to explain how a 747 wing will ever fit inside a 9ft tall cargo container. It’s simple really: imagine a tape measure. In a tape measure a thin, flexible strip of metal is wound into a spiral. Then, when the metal is uncoiled, it naturally returns to its original shape. That’s exactly how we plan to make our sails. The skin of our sail or the inner spars (we haven’t finalized our design) will be made of tape measure like material (2mm thick steel) and the wing will be able to extend out of the cargo container. The video in the first paragraph explains this in a bit more detail.

By fitting our sail into a cargo container we allow for our device to be installed on any cargo ship right at port. Remember how we mentioned that some shippers are ordering a lot more ships and some ships are getting retrofitted with new fuel? Well, shipyards are backed up for the next 5 years. By making a device that requires no shipyard to install, not only will we drastically outcompete other retrofit WASP companies in terms of deployment cost, but we will be the only company with a product shippers can put on their ship without a multiple year wait time.

Do you have any interesting stories around sailing or wind tech? We would love to hear your ideas, experiences, and feedback on any and all of the above!

wpietri · 3 years ago
As the maintainer of a cargo ship tracker [1] and as somebody whose sailing career started and ended with sinking [2] a J/22 sailboat [3], I can only salute you. This is clever, bold, and ambitious. How do we keep track of your progress? I looked for a blog or mailing list, but I didn't see one.

[1] now at https://sfba.social/@sfships; formerly at https://twitter.com/sfships

[2] They said it was unsinkable, but as a software developer clearly I'm more talented than the norm.

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J/22

ArpanRau · 3 years ago
Follow our linkedin! I'll post there when I can :)

https://www.linkedin.com/company/OutSail-Shipping/

wpietri · 3 years ago
Done. Thanks!
trillic · 3 years ago
What happened? Long knock down and a hatch glass failure? Or a failure to secure the hatch glass entirely?
wpietri · 3 years ago
It was a rental, so I'm not totally sure. I think they told me that there was a compartment that wasn't properly sealed?

Once you took sailing classes at the place, you could take one out. My first time out on my own I backwinded the jib, which knocked it down. Then my non-sailor friends grabbed for the top rail, turtling the boat. Eventually we got it back up and started bailing, but it kept getting lower in the water, so we all jumped out again. The back then pretty rapidly sank, leaving a foot of the mast and a foot of the bow above the water. That left us treading water two miles offshore on a quiet Wednesday afternoon.

As you might imagine, I haven't done a lot of sailing since.

trillic · 3 years ago
Awesome to see this on Hacker News, I love whenever we get sailors on here. I have tons of questions.

Why steel? Durability I assume? Have you modeled using a textile?

Do you have load sensors throughout the wing? Anemometors?

How active is the trimming? Is it just a single axis of rotation or do you have the ability to adjust the leech and luff shape? If so do you have the ability to adjust both the leeward and windward skins? Or just the windward? 2mm steel seems like it has a decent amount of play at that scale? Have you built any bigger scale models with steel? Feels to me like iteration time would take a significant hit playing with steel instead of cloth?

As consistent as these ships are with their speed under motor, the apparent wind will be all over the place. Could see apparent from 50+ on the nose to 5 knots from dead astern. Do you intend to have a fixed set of optimal wind velocities and trim settings? Or want to make something that is usable and automatic in anything but the most violent of breezes?

How much of the bill-of-materials is custom and how much is off-the-shelf type components and structural bits? Any custom composite parts or fairly off the shelf steel tubing, bar, and such?

Also are you hiring?

jmoorebeek · 3 years ago
We're looking at steel partly for durability, but also if we're going to be rolling up the sails a lot then fatigue limits become a lot more important. Cost is key too - I'd love to make this from CF, but price goes way up.

For load sensors, we're thinking strain gauges and pressure sensors to measure wing surface pressure and use that for live feedback. Anemometers might be mounted on the top of the wing, but more likely we'll use a master anemometer at the bridge to send info to the entire array.

For the wing shape, we're currently looking at a symmetric airfoil with fixed ribs inside for strength, so not able to actively change the camber, but we are looking at the ability to do wing warping to change the overall shape of the wing. We are still working to get our first data from on the water, so no good answers on the trim other than we want to make this as automatic and turnkey for the ship master as possible. We're quite early in the design still, though, so don't yet know where the limits of the technology are. Likewise, no answers on BOM and sourcing for you. However, we do plan to start hiring after our seed raise, so feel free to contact us through our website!

knodi123 · 3 years ago
> We're looking at steel partly for durability

...

> For load sensors, we're thinking strain gauges and pressure sensors

"We're looking"? "We're thinking"? Considering your demo video was a guy showing off folded printer paper secured with duct tape, and a gauzy fabric built around an off-the-shelf tape measure....

How far along are you? Sounds like you're nowhere even near a prototype, let alone a beta design. I know every company has gone through a design phase and a (sometimes lengthy) build up... but you don't usually see them start the PR hype train before they've even got a CGI demo or a model that isn't made out of scrap. What is it that makes you a real company, and not just some guy who got real excited about an idea he had last week?

sailfast · 3 years ago
+1 to seeing sailing on here :)

I'd imagine the last 1-2 generations of America's Cup boats would have a lot to glean in terms of wing sail camber changes and how they operate. Pretty neat to watch how they use flaps vertically, but there's a lot of hydraulics and carbon at play there as well.

Maybe the competition is these guys? (Inflatable sails) https://www.michelin.com/en/press-releases/michelin-continue...

And something a bit more conventional off the bow when winds are favorable? https://skysails-marine.com/

pg_bot · 3 years ago
Look at basalt fiber, similar properties to carbon fiber but much cheaper.
roter · 3 years ago
I know zero about how containers are tied down but the gust forces on the sails that I saw in the video are going to be enormous. Have there been some simple checks on the righting moments on the container and how it transmitted to the containers below and finally to the deck? One benefit of the design is that you can "reef" in bad conditions (hopefully really, really quickly) and perhaps still get some benefit.

Have you done any weather routing calcs to see what the angle of attack for the big ship lanes? Perhaps an integrated trip cost-benefit?

Also, you might not want to use the WASP acronym and stick with just "wind-assisted propulsion". The wind industry will immediately think of the WAsP software [0].

[0] https://www.wasp.dk/

ArpanRau · 3 years ago
Appreciate the acronym check! That's a great point.

Our design evolved out of a routing/performance analysis software that we run on historical weather data. Angle of attack and trip cost-benefit varies per lane. In general transpacific and transatlantic have amazing winds, with other routes performing well but not at well.

We've done the excel-level analyses on container loads and wing buckling forces. It all checks out. There is a combined-load case at 15deg of roll with heavy containers and heavy winds that's zero-margin, but as you said we can reef when required. Reefing will likely be single-digit minutes, but we can also feather (0 angle of attack) much more quickly.

idealism · 3 years ago
Though it may not matter much, "WASZP" is also the naming of a popular foiling dinghy sailboat.
Gasp0de · 3 years ago
Can you reef while the sail is feathered (?) or does the sail have to be aligned with the boat/container to be rolled up?
jmoorebeek · 3 years ago
I agree, the roll moments are a huge design challenge! We're looking at multiple avenues to bring those loads down to the deck: - The double wide container already has a longer lever arm to provide righting moment - We plan to incorporate load spreaders (similar to a crane) which can further extend the footprint to the adjacent container stacks - We are designing in tethers which automatically drop down to the deck level and get lashed down by a deckhand during installation, which provide additional tension support.

Bailey has written a routing software which we use to send virtual ships on crossings (for instance Trans Pacific), incorporating historical weather data. Even with no change in route or vessel speed, we can see benefits.

mike_d · 3 years ago
> The double wide container

Yikes. Containers are stacked as high as they can be to not crush the containers below. Applying additional downward force is going to cause cascading failures.

You've also just limited your deployment to routes that have double-stack container cranes, which AFAIK aren't that widely deployed.

Have you guys actually talked to anyone in the shipping industry or visited a cargo shipyard yet?

Deleted Comment

jakubmazanec · 3 years ago
AFAIK this is what is most associated with WASP acronym: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestants

Deleted Comment

polar8 · 3 years ago
If you go with WAP you can hire Cardi B as your celebrity spokesperson!
Gwypaas · 3 years ago
I would be cautious about the twisting loads on containers. The side forces will be huge, especially in a swell. Then add mechanical parts that must work in an incredibly hostile environment, and lastly, add on the north Atlantic in the winter, and you are in for a bad time. Ships losing containers due to stacks collapsing happens very frequently, without any extra forces.

https://alsum.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Perdida-de-conte...

Look at a purpose-built sailship from the age of sail in a north Atlantic storm. It is a rough ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RABaByP_8

Another attempt in a similar fashion is the Oceanbird concept by Wallenius Wilhelmsen, but that means building the vessel from the ground to handle the forces and that over-head loading and unloading is not possible, thus the aim at RO-RO ships.

https://www.theoceanbird.com/

With one vessel already ordered:

https://www.walleniuswilhelmsen.com/news-and-insights/highli...

Personally, as a commercial sailor and software engineer, this container approach screams of VCs throwing money at commercial shipping without understanding the industry. Profit margins are non-existent and are already hugely optimized with possibilities for specialized solutions. This wing sail will have to compete with synthetic fuels without increasing the cost due to crewing requirements.

ArpanRau · 3 years ago
Yep, supporting the moment from the wing via containers is the biggest structural concern. The containers are strong enough in most sea states, with reefing/feathering required in heavier winds and seas. We will stow the sail long before it encounters conditions like the ones shown in your video.

Oceanbird is awesome! The trouble is that overhauling the entire industry with new-built ships would take too long to make a meaningful climate impact, and be extremely expensive (not to mention that their approach only works for ro-ros).

Synthetic fuels will compete with aviation for the green hydrogen supply (needed to make methanol/ammonia/green hydrocarbons) and are expected to cost 2-3x what current fuels cost. This net makes our fuel cost savings case even stronger.

Industry insiders generally already know that there's really no good cost-saving decarbonization solution, and that decarbonizing fast is a hair-on-fire problem for owner/operators. The barriers standing in the way of most wind-assist devices are: poor ROI, shipyard availability for retrofits, risk to shipwoner (capital upfront), and that they don't package on containerships. We solve all these problems by using a large, efficient wing and depending on the container load path. There are technical problems to solve, but the fundamental physics works.

mike_d · 3 years ago
Every "I'm going to start with a shipping container" solution eventually runs into the same problem: shipping containers are effectively empty soda cans. They are only strong when loaded exactly as expected.

Have you actually talked to anyone in the cargo ship industry about your idea?

theflyingpigeon · 3 years ago
>> Oceanbird is awesome! The trouble is that overhauling the entire industry with new-built ships would take too long to make a meaningful climate impact, and be extremely expensive (not to mention that their approach only works for ro-ros).

Shipping is responsible for like 2% of emissions. A 5-10-20% reduction on a small number of vessels for a small number of voyages is not gonna make a dent.

julosflb · 3 years ago
What is the order of magnitude of the wind load generated on one single wing?
RhodesianHunter · 3 years ago
This is clearly intended to supplement, not replace, the ship's existing power source.

You would fold these down rather than trying to ride out a swell with them up. They go out of they way to clarify how easily these can be furled and unfurled.

goosinmouse · 3 years ago
Im no engineer but this is what i thought too. Just automatically fold the sails when gusts reach above a certain threshold. Shouldn't be too hard, right?
carabiner · 3 years ago
Everyone's forgetting that this is just like a jetliner wing. Huge forces, harsh environments, long lifespan... this is how commercial airplanes are designed, and one of the founders is a professional aerospace engineer who worked at Tesla.
roflyear · 3 years ago
> professional aerospace engineer who worked at Tesla.

Being fair, this is really broad and doesn't mean much at all.

Someone · 3 years ago
> Everyone's forgetting that this is just like a jetliner wing.

Just like a jetliner wing that can be folded up. On the plus side, jetliners regularly hit speeds relative to the air that are ten times as fast

roflyear · 3 years ago
Well, you don't have to run it in those conditions.
nickff · 3 years ago
Most of the popular shipping lanes traverse hostile conditions for at least one season of the year.
sourcecodeplz · 3 years ago
It's never gonna work for a multitude of reasons like you said. Usually I'm not pessimistic but this really seems like: we have an idea, make a video, post it on a site, ask questions later.
stevage · 3 years ago
It probably won't succeed, because most startups don't succeed.
jpm_sd · 3 years ago
Agreed on all counts. "Mirage" is the perfect name for this product.
L_226 · 3 years ago
I'm sure it's implied the container itself will be fixed to the hull to meet those requirements
chrisweekly · 3 years ago
I love literally everything about this idea and origin story. I care about climate change, I've lived on sailboats, I'm a software engineer, I've worked for and with startups for over 20 years... and somehow this line:

"What brought the three of us together was actually a Dungeons & Dragons game"

is the best part.

Feel free to hit me up (contact info in my profile) if you need a pep talk or intros to different circle of potential investors or friendly advice about web performance. Otherwise I'll be following your story and cheering you on from the sidelines.

theflyingpigeon · 3 years ago
Shipping is responsible for 3% of global emissions. Let’s say this solution worked (which it probably won’t), it would be used in a small percentage of vessels, and only used in an even smaller number of voyages/parts of each voyage. The difference for the climate is basically zero.
joshuabaker2 · 3 years ago
This looks amazing! Wind power is totally underutilized in the shipping industry, I've been waiting for something like this for ages.

I used to be part of a team back in university making autonomous sailboats [1] and one of the things that I was surprised by when working on this was that there are a TON of hurricanes out in the middle of the ocean (we were working to build it to cross the Atlantic). We built a system to take in weather prediction data to try to avoid hurricanes, but we were building a relatively tiny boat—do large shipping vessels do this as well? I'd assume they can sail through pretty bad weather. If so, do you have ways to lower the sails easily to protect them?

Additionally, do you have any software to help inform the vessel operators how to best sail into the wind or are the net savings not worth it considering most of the propulsion is still coming from fuel-based sources?

Overall, this is super exciting and best of luck!

[1] Now at (https://www.ubcsailbot.org/)

jmoorebeek · 3 years ago
Lowering the sails will be critical to safe operation in bad weather. The deployment process will be easily reversible, so that within a few minutes you can go from full sail to fully stowed (or any place in between), likely with emergency settings to bring the sail down faster. We don't want to limit the weather a ship would sail in without diversion, but instead just make use of reasonable winds when they are present. We certainly will want to make future software for route planning assistance, but our first step will not require the ship to change course or speed to see benefits of the sails. It's certainly worth it over all to follow the wind, but for ease of adoption that can come later.
schimmy_changa · 3 years ago
Large cargo vessels do try to avoid bad weather, even though they can sail through most of it. It's a crew happiness, risk, and loss avoidance concern (knowing these companies, probably mostly the latter two!).

I was on a cargo ship in the pacific which diverted into the Bering Sea to avoid some weather instead of skirting just south of the Aleutian Islands as planned. The captain gots orders via satellite from a land crew that's crunching the numbers of risk vs extra fuel costs at all times for the fleet. The first mate was frustrated by how this all works. He said (English not being his first language): "This is terrible! We never get to decide anything for ourselves. We are like Muppets!". I think he meant "puppets"...

carlosjobim · 3 years ago
> Wind power is totally underutilized in the shipping industry

The shipping industry was 100% wind powered, with very mature technology developed and tried during centuries, and thousands upon thousands of experts in the area. Why do you think the whole industry switched to engines?

joshuabaker2 · 3 years ago
Predictability, speed, cheap fuel, a lack of understanding of climate change, etc.

We also used to have windmills to grind grain and then switched over to mills that use electricity or fossil fuels. But of course, windmills to generate electricity have become quite popular. What's old can be new again when combined with modern technologies.

keizo · 3 years ago
Did you work with Greg Wong?! I worked with him after he graduated and heard quite a bit from him. Awesome project. :)
joshuabaker2 · 3 years ago
I did! He's awesome. I was on the software side of things and he was the mechanical but our paths crossed quite frequently.
ilrwbwrkhv · 3 years ago
This is amazing and a great panacea for the pain caused by the ai copycat products I have been seeing flooding YC.

New breakthroughs in transportation is the need of the hour.

One of the reasons the world is teetering on a recession right now is there has been not a lot of physical changes to the world around us to create new worlds which software can then eat again.

Projects like this then, give me a lot of hope.

fourseventy · 3 years ago
With the relative wind angle mostly being dead ahead because of the engines, this means that the vessel will effectively be sailing a close hauled course. When sails are trimmed for this heading, most of the force generated by the sail is perpendicular to the direction of the vessel. In normal sailing vessels this perpendicular force is converted into forward velocity with a keel. Without a keel your sailing ship will just drift sideways when attempting to sail a close hauled course. I'm assuming that giant shipping container ships don't have a keel, so how will these sails generate effective forward velocity for the ship and not just drag the ship horizontally off course?
jmoorebeek · 3 years ago
While a container ship doesn't have a keel per-se, it does have about 200m of flat plate length sticking into the water. At small angles, that flat plate can actually have a decent lift to drag ratio. Historic sailing vessels also made do without a modern wing-keel, so our current plan is that the container ship can crab into the wind by less than a degree to produce all of the side force required to maintain a steady course.
Rorando · 3 years ago
Yeah a classic keel is not needed for bigger vessels as long as GM is low enough. One big difference between sail ships and modern ones is the increased air draft which effects the lift to drag ratio. Looking at your answers so far, I assume you've considered this already.