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Posted by u/tomsayer 3 years ago
Show HN: Ello (YC W20) – AI-reading tutor for kids that works with real books
Hi HN,

We’re Elizabeth, Catalin, and Tom - the founders of Ello (https://www.helloello.com). Ello is an AI-powered app that mimics the one-on-one interaction of a reading tutor by listening to, encouraging, and coaching kids grade K-3 as they read out loud from a real book.

We posted on HN back in 2020 when we launched Trustle, a company designed to pair families with dedicated experts in child development. We learned from that experience that parents don’t want a consultant, but they do want actual help with specific challenges—one of the biggest being reading.

Prior to COVID, 65% of 4th graders in the U.S. were reading behind level. The most recent National Assessment of Educational Progress report revealed that reading levels have dropped even further, to the lowest level since 1992. These disheartening statistics reinforce something we learned during our time at Trustle—of all the pain points parents face in raising children, reading can often be one of the most critical yet most difficult to address, especially if the child doesn’t like to read.

In an effort to help reverse this trend, we used advances in speech recognition - driven by self-supervised learning - to create a virtual experience designed to provide effective reading support. It's no substitute for attention and coaching from a caring adult, which is obviously what kids really need, but unfortunately that is not always available.

If every child had consistent access to 1:1 reading support and every parent or caregiver had the time, language skills, and confidence to help their children learn to read with no outside assistance, then there would not be a need for a technical solution. Unfortunately, we know not every child has this access, and many parents are looking for extra support. That's why we've built Ello.

If you look at a great teacher or parent working with a child, they are talking to each other. Ello uses a speech recognition model that listens to what a child is saying and provides the appropriate phonics based coaching, as well as commentary and help. As a child reads across the page of a physical book, the Ello app tracks the child’s progress and picks up when they miss a word or get a word wrong and then steps in just like a good reading coach would.

One criticism that we’ve heard since launching is that we are trying to replace the sacred role of a parent teaching their child to read. We say, “Not at all!”. Ello can serve as a resource for every type of parent without being a “replacement”, which is impossible in any case.

We’ve had most success with children who are reluctant readers. Ello provides a fun environment to practice reading without the pressure of an adult watching you. We’ve seen kids who flat out refuse to read start to enjoy reading in a short period of time.

We are highly privacy oriented; unlike most apps relying on speech tracking we can work completely on device with no internet and no audio data shared back with us.

We launched in early in 2022 and have come a long way since then. The model works like this: we mail customers five books and a prepaid return shipping label every month. At the end of the month you mail the books back or keep as many as you want for an additional $5 apiece, and then we mail you next month’s box. Our reading specialists help determine the appropriate reading level for every child and make sure that we are sending books to match. Right now we support roughly K through 3rd grade, although Ello can be effective for some Pre-K kids as well.

We know there are many parents on HN, including those with young children. We would love to hear about your experiences and needs around your children’s reading journeys and your perspective on how something like Ello might help. Or, if you’re in the US, give us a try (we are only in the US as we ship physical books right now, but are launching a digital only version in the first half of this year and then will be available more broadly) - you can get a free month with code ellohacker. And of course we welcome any feedback, questions, and ideas!

tdekken · 3 years ago
Congratulations on launching! I love the combination of an app coupled with physical books. It really demonstrates your understanding of your customers.

* I would love to know more about your phonics instruction. From what I can see, Ello embeds the instruction into the "help the child sound out the words" component. Is that correct or is more systematic instruction provided?

* How do you help children overcome the seemingly maddening inconsistency of the English language? For example, the long a sound can correspond to the a, ai, eigh, aigh, ay, er (RP), et, ei, au, a_e, ea, and ey graphemes.

* Does your speech recognition system understand at the phoneme level?

BTW, I would love to connect. I am an independent educational researcher and early literacy edtech founder. My background is big tech (principal engineer at a FAANG company) and am now navigating the treacherous waters of building an audience, securing funding, bringing in experts, etc.

Best of luck!

tomsayer · 3 years ago
Great questions! - When a child makes a mistake or needs help we take the child through a phonics decoding exercise (scaffolded 'sounding it out'.) Right now we support reading practice rather than provide full systematic instruction - i.e. we don't replace the rigorous, structured program a child should get in school. However, we are working right now on building out our own scope and sequence and detailed phonics instruction and hope to add that soon. - This one is beyond me and I don't want to pretend to be the expert here. That's Elizabeth and Lauren. Let's definitely connect and I'll get an answer from them. - Our speech recognition system does an OK job at the phoneme level. We are releasing an updated model that will go hand in hand with the scope and sequence that should be the best there is and be great at the phoneme level.

Would love to connect. My email is my first name at our company url!

Tom

ojame · 3 years ago
This looks pretty cool! A few questions (specifically for early years):

  - 5 books seems quite limited, especially for early years where shorter books are better. My kid currently reads 1 to 2 'readers' per day at home, outside of school. He not only gets bored reading the same book multiple times, but like most kids he ends up memorising a bunch of it so it's less 'reading' and more 'remembering'. How do you plan to give kids ~30+ books a month?
  - There's a lot of nuance in learning to read - my kid would take the easy way out if he could. The easy way out when we read together is to try with a word once, struggle, ask me what it says and move on. Depending on the context we do that sometimes, but most of the time we spend time dissecting it, comparing it to other words, understanding the context etc. He doesn't have the self control (do any kids? lmao) to do that by himself, or to be persistent enough. With support it's great - how do you plan on working through that problem, especially being able to dissect and compare previous experience?
  - I'm sure other parents can relate, but when it comes to learning to read, a lot of support is in keeping the child focused on the task. We generally like trying to read in a distraction free environment - after the novelty of Ello has worn off, have you seen any negative impact of having a screen with you constantly while you're learning to read?
  - Depending on what you research, there's a general sentiment around 'talking through the book and understanding it' is key to help children develop reading skills. It's less 'learning the sounds words make' and more 'reading for information'. Early readers attempt to do this with basic questions like "what color was the ball" or "where did the dog sleep", but i've never had much luck with those. We tend to have more success in talking about the book as we're reading. How do you plan to support that kind of learning ecosystem?
Again, this looks very cool! The above are just questions I'd ask myself before I'd buy one and 'outsource' some of our reading work, so just interested.

tomsayer · 3 years ago
- Five is definitely insufficient for some children (and too much for kids who really struggle and want to perfect books). We're working on giving parents the ability to get more; either we ship more, or once you have read the physical books you can unlock digital books. Lots of considerations there of course. We also want you to be able to use books from e.g. the school library. Q for you - for the 1 to 2 readers a day your child reads, where do those books come from? - That's a great one. I haven't had that question before but I could certainly see the challenge there. Let me ask Elizabeth and Lauren (the experts) what they think on that. - It goes one of two ways; both which we're happy with. The first way is the child builds their confidence and doesn't need Ello anymore. Not the best for business but a great outcome :) The other is that the child continues to value the 'safe space' to practice reading, and does it in conjunction with reading elsewhere. - Research pretty strongly shows that the most important skill - to begin with - is decoding (learning the sounds words makes.). Comprehension comes after that. What has been fairly strongly disproven is that context in reading is sufficient (and some would even say helpful) in learning the fundamentals of reading. Having said that, comprehension is a crucial latter part of reading - we're excited for some of the potential for ChatGPT here in allowing us to go beyond basic questions.

Great questions for us to think about as to what would be in the back of parents minds. And Ill get back to you on the second!

ojame · 3 years ago
Thanks for the detailed reply! Great answers and fills me with hope that perhaps Ello will work for us when our second or third starts reading.

We get the readers either from school or the library. Generally there's 1 reader a day from school, and maybe a little support book too. Then we just hire some from the library each week and use them to fill in the gaps, especially on the weekend. We have a wealth of other books, and hire picture books etc. for 'shared reading' times when we read to the kids after dinner etc.

"Comprehension comes after that" - makes total sense. Can see Ello being great at the decoding step, and yeah, some potential in ChatGPT and other new tech to assist more with comprehension.

Look luck mate, hope for you success!

xwowsersx · 3 years ago
This is awesome. Congratulations on the launch. So happy to see that you are going with phonics instead of whole word or other methods. Phonics is absolutely the correct approach. As John McWhorter puts it[0]: "Scientific investigators of how children learn to read have proved repeatedly that phonics works better for more children."

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/opinion/kids-reading-spel...

tomsayer · 3 years ago
Yup- It's a pretty settled debate now I think. There's a good podcast on it called 'Sold a story' that just came out. Thanks for the NYT link!
xwowsersx · 3 years ago
"Sold a Story" looks great, thanks for that. I will give the episodes a listen.

Regarding Ello, how does it adapt to a child's reading level? Say my child is in 2nd grade, but is reading at a 1st grade level. Will Ello learn that over time and choose/recommend books that are more appropriate for their level? Appreciate any color you can provide on how that works. Thanks.

klankbrouwerij · 3 years ago
Nice work! Interesting idea to combine an app with “real” books!

One of your challenges for your business model might be to ensure long-term engagement. Parents might be very interested in your product but might lose interest after a while, leading to high churn rate after a few months. How are you dealing with this? Any tips for other startups who are also selling to parents?

Your app reminds me of Google’s Read Along [0], which is also a reading tutor for young children which one of Google’s offline speech recognition systems (it seems they are currently using an RNN-T encoder-decoder architecture with wordpieces as the base unit). Too bad this app was not marketed properly and translated in many languages, a missed opportunity it seems!

Soapbox Labs [1] is providing a speech recognition API (also offline) for reading tutors and other apps. It might be cheaper to integrate their technology? I believe their ASR technology used to be based (or still is?) on the Kaldi speech recognition toolkit, that might ring a bell ;-)

[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... [1] https://www.soapboxlabs.com/

eba7keb · 3 years ago
Thanks for the comment! We find that if a parent actually uses the product, and it changes their child's relationship with reading, Ello is quite sticky. Our biggest issues with churn are related to cost of the product and activation (people cancelling without ever using it). In terms of advice: 1) talk to parents about their pain points and iterate again and again, 2) be aware that a product that increases "work" rather than easing it, that causes a lot of resistance and friction.

We took a look at read along - it seems to have fallen off. I think the biggest issue with read along was the approach to supporting kids (it just gave the words rather than coaching the child through decoding them) and the quality of the "books" (the stories weren't that engaging and the illustrations were simple). The quality of the story matters a lot.

We looked at soapbox but for a number of reasons, we want to build our own speech recognition technology and have the team to do it! There are some issues with the time is takes for soapbox to run as well as the accuracy of the model. Thanks again!

bayan1234 · 3 years ago
I would subscribe but your website doesn't have a clear demo video of a child using the product to read. It looks very interesting and useful though!
tomsayer · 3 years ago
Good feedback! Will work on updating the website to show that. Were you wanting to just see the specific interaction of how it works?

You can see a bunch of videos users have uploaded here: https://www.reviews.io/company-reviews/store/ello

(And can also see reviews if you click on product reviews.)

nimz · 3 years ago
A "real" demo video was exactly what I was looking for as well. Since the concept is so novel, seeing the product in action would increase my trust, and willingness to buy significantly. My skeptical side made me wonder if demos with real children had been left out on purpose so it doesn't make the product look bad - probably not what you were going for.
novia · 3 years ago
Just yesterday I learned about the learning disorder called hyperlexia[1], where a child appears to be a very advanced reader for their age, but in reality they are approaching reading as a problem to be solved rather than as a source of information. The child ends up with a superficial reading skill that's more advanced than their verbal language understanding skill.

I'd imagine a hyperlexic reader would sound very accurate to Ello. Do you have any way to test the child's understanding of what is being read instead of just checking for correct pronunciation of words to make sure the app doesn't create a generation of hyperlexics?

You've said you're not trying to replace the adult/child interactions involved with learning to read, but the cynic in me thinks that some parents or teachers will lean on the tool a little too hard.

[1] https://www.verywellfamily.com/hyperlexia-signs-diagnosis-an...

eba7keb · 3 years ago
Thanks for your comment! As of right now, We aren't a tool that diagnoses or assesses in a formal way (though we may move in that direction in the future). Research shows that the number of children who read for pleasure is the lowest it has been in decades. Additionally, many children don't read at home at all, and resist parent (and school) bids to have them read at home independently. Ello's focus is more on making reading for fun a more supported experience where the kids have an opportunity to learn in the moment (using evidence-based strategies). We support comprehension through commentary Ello makes (summarizing and commenting as the child reads) rather than testing or assessing the child's comprehension skills. This was a purposeful choice. Hyperlexia isn't something that can be "created" through reading independently (Elizabeth here, child clinical psychologist and co-founder of Ello). It is a (relatively rare) disorder where very young children decode far above grade level. In most cases, this is flagged in schools, and would be flagged for us if a parent reported a very high reading ability for their child's age (which is usually the opposite profile of our customer). However, you are correct that hyperlexia is a learning difference where there is decoding without meaning. Generally, we send books for children that are at or below grade level in reading for practice with reading fluency. We aren't a full service curriculum (and have designed our program to focus on enjoyment and time in text).
carapace · 3 years ago
I don't want to rain on your parade. I really hope I'm wrong. But I see this as somehow profoundly, deeply dystopian.

On the one hand, AI should be used to alleviate the economic and social conditions that prevent children from having attention and coaching from caring adults.

On the other, raising children by robot seems sketchy to me (in ways that are difficult to articulate.)

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.

danielscrubs · 3 years ago
I think it's the opposite. I can't phantom that I would have learned programming at a young age if I didn't have a compiler telling me (with actionable steps, nowadays the search engine) that I'm wrong.

Teaching is a frustrating job where you have to make students repeat things over and over which makes students ashamed and the teachers bored, it's not like the movies where the students remember everything perfectly after a good explanation.

carapace · 3 years ago
s/phantom/fathom/ I assume your computer did that?

- - - -

I'd say computer programming is different than reading comprehension. Compiling is perfectly appropriate for a machine to give you feedback: the process is mechanical and the machine has good information.

> Teaching is a frustrating job...

Right: that's the problem to solve. (I'm assuming you're not talking about, er, having hired people to be teachers who don't actually want or enjoy the job, eh?)

> ...you have to make students repeat things over and over...

I would say that that's a obsolete method of teaching: in 2023 we know enough about memory now to teach mnemonics. But that's kind of a tangent.

> ...students ashamed and the teachers bored...

More symptoms of a broken system, IMO.

We have much better systems and techniques for education than we generally use now. (In my experience school (public school at least) functions more as a warehouse to keep kids out of the way, and any educational effects are secondary. That's the problem we should be trying to solve, with AI or anything else...)

My point is that computers and robots should do the scut work to free up the adults to do the important human activities like teaching our young.

ludicast · 3 years ago
Sounds like a great app, was hoping for something like this & immediately signed up

Initial onboarding flow comments

- nice product/market fit - I almost missed the promo code but wouldn't have been a barrier to paying

- imagine that at 25/mo (+ another 25 for books) it's also kind of expensive for families who are impoverished and might need it more (believe lockdowns were way way worse for their kids).

- felt like there weren't enough "none of your business" options. Like I have 2 kids of different age but similar reading levels. Even though they go to actual schools, I just selected that they were homeschooled to preserve some privacy

- wasn't clear how to handle siblings. I went with setting the options based on the one who needs it more and hopefully it doesn't get confused by both a girl's voice and a boy's voice (edit: after signing up I see the add-a-child option in the online profile)

- this should have been more clear: "Can Ello use audio recordings to provide additional features and to improve the service?". I selected no, even though I would have wanted my kid's voices saved to make the experience better for them. I just felt a single checkbox was insufficient here because there should be multiple levels of privacy+information implied (and where kids are involved that's way more sensitive an issue)

- annoying that after signing up there was no preview book available in the app, just a sad & lonely "hurry up and wait" page. would be great if there were immediately some books that they could read in case they already had them home or in the library (go with something popular here). otherwise it feels like a growth hack is being used on my kids

But looking forward. My kids really enjoy math+chess apps (esp the dragonbox family) and we usually work IRL to reinforce what the apps teach (also Epic and some others). Happy to share more thoughts, esp once they get to playing with it.

tomsayer · 3 years ago
Thanks for signing up but even more, thanks for the wonderful feedback.

- We actually find the opposite. Without the promo code people are reluctant to try it. I think because it's new and - to you next point - not cheap. - This is a real concern for us and one of our primary product develop tracks it to change this. Our mission contains the phrase 'regardless of resources' and as a $25 DTC product we are not doing that yet. Hopefully much more to come on this soon. - Interesting. We kinda have to know the grade level to send the right books. About 10% of parents know their child's reading level but 90% the only info we get is grade level and ahead/ behind etc... I haven't heard that as a privacy concern. We could do more to explain why we want this. - We can explain how to add siblings better up front. It is there, but it's small and easy to miss. - Agree. Right now as we are getting started we have made it binary - our main goal was that Ello would work for those who really wanted no data sharing, and to give parents that option very easily and clearly. As we start to build out more product features that rely on processing audio we should make privacy modular rather than binary. - Again agree. We're working on that. We definitely need to get parents/kids to the 'aha' moment sooner and not have a 5 day shipping delay. What do you mean by it feeling like a growth hack? It feels like the opposite to me - a growth killer!

Would love any more thoughts as you get the box and they start using it. Thanks you!

ludicast · 3 years ago
> Without the promo code people are reluctant to try it.

Yeah, I mean I used the promo code, was just complementing that you hit on something I was jumping into regardless. Feels like most subscription kids apps are $9 a month max (I lost track of all we pay for), but I didn't blink at you being way above.

> We kinda have to know the grade level to send the right books... I haven't heard that as a privacy concern.

I might have slightly misphrased this. Basically some parents would be super involved with an app like this (we tend to be) and want to self-serve a little bit more. As a more extreme example - and not your beachhead customer for sure - there are plenty of adults who read at a low level and would feel more comfortable with there being an "other" option in there.

But I get the opposite side too. It is a lot simpler to have it tied to their school grade. I'm just sort of thinking out loud about removing barriers because I think something like this might be super useful for kids

> What do you mean by it feeling like a growth hack?

Might be a silly point of mine. But I mean by adding anticipation/delays into the mix, even though they are enforced by real-world shipping factors. There are plenty of public domain books - many of which families already own (or can print pdfs of) - that can be there to seed the collection. So the blank library on day 1 is silly.

Also, maybe I am projecting my own anticipation of the box arriving.

Another note, it seems that the requested features (privacy levels and interests) are not available for edit after registering.