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Posted by u/YuryVladkov 3 years ago
Amazon rescinding the offer while I am on the notice period
A few days ago, just before the Christmas, Amazon HR called me to inform that my offer is rescinded. The start date was Jan 2, 2023. As a gift, they will pay me a months salary.

I already resigned from my current post after obtaining the work visa for the new location on November 30th. I asked their affirmation before resigning.

Right now, I cannot relocate and my current visa became void since I resigned. I also cancelled my rent agreement. In a month, I will be on streets, without a job and visa.

In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust. Guess I did wrong. Are all places like this?

Ps: sorry, I forgot to add. the new location was Canada. My current location is in EU.

Ps2: some background about me:

Amazon offer was for Sde2. I have 5 yoe. I have worked in several projects spanning from embedded software for airplanes to scalable cloud based data heavy backend applications.

Java/C++98 were the primary stack.

I had turned down an offer from Meta to join Amazon. I think my system design and general ds&a ability is okay. I am a good team player and perform well in friendly environment.

tyingq · 3 years ago
Rescinding an offer that's tied to a visa is just extra shitty, sorry this happened to you. Surely they know the consequences that you'll suffer. I wonder if the Amazon leadership chain that collectively decided to do this has any remorse.

Edit: Feels like something that governments should tie to individual company's ability to use the visa program. Rescind a visa-tied offer (for no-fault-of-applicant reason), and we yank your right to use the program.

np- · 3 years ago
No, you are purely a number to them, it is very unlikely anyone cares or even is mildly interested in the full scope of the damage they’re causing. I have worked with companies like this, if you try to push them from the “guilt” angle they usually double down about how this is collectively the best solution (carefully omitting that what they mean is it’s the best solution for their personal ambitions and wallets)
Kim_Bruning · 3 years ago
I would agree. I think the political reason this doesn't happen is because the victims aren't voters in the relevant area. Not even necessarily in the most cynical sense. How many people will have researched upfront who the relevant representatives are at their destination, let alone how to reach them?

I keep thinking one might want to have some sort of international organization where people in each country reciprocally lobby for better international workers rights for each other's citizens.

Maybe something like this already exists, but I haven't heard of anything like it?

vikingerik · 3 years ago
On that last, beware the law of unintended consequence: that penalty would serve as a deterrent against making offers to visa users in the first place, if the company had no route out of it once offered.

It's the same idea as European worker protection employment laws compared to the US: they sound good, but the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

mafuy · 3 years ago
> that penalty would serve as a deterrent against making offers to visa users

It would put the additional costs they create to be visible. This is as it should be, since visa users do cost more than hiring domestic.

However, it would not be much more. And if amazon deems it to be too expensive, then other companies which are more efficient can take up the spare visa users, just as the free market intends.

temporary22 · 3 years ago
> but the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

Which is good. Nobody wants a work environment that changes every five minutes.

parasense · 3 years ago
> the effect is that companies have to be slower to hire when firing is that much harder.

Sounds like EU labor policy causes a set of effects resulting in a kind of equilibrium, perhaps a Nash Equilibrium.

mmanciop · 3 years ago
Remorse? Are you kidding? Some likely get a long-forgotten tingle out of it ;-)
iLoveOncall · 3 years ago
So what's the better option? Laying off someone already employed instead?

It's not extra shitty, it's just as shitty as any other situation. It sucks for the person involved but the alternatives are not better.

At least someone that got their offer rescinded can sue for promissory estoppel.

tyingq · 3 years ago
A company uses the visa program typically under the reasoning "we need this kind of worker so bad that we can't hire locally". So, if they are rescinding an offer, it's hard to support the original premise.

Also, "extra shitty" seems obvious to me. You're not only not hired, you likely have to leave the country. The company rescinding the offer knows this.

prng2021 · 3 years ago
The better option would have been to hire him. How is that not obvious?

Amazon as a multi-national, multi-billion dollar company can absorb the expense of employing him. I’m the worst case, they can lay off an existing low performing employee to compensate.

benj111 · 3 years ago
If they need to lay off people, why are they advertising for, recruiting and offering jobs to people?

If they can't do simple things like not hiring people they don't need, maybe they should employ this guy as HR manager.

phpisthebest · 3 years ago
Markets and business economics do not change that fast where there should be a need to rescind offers in a properly managed company. Amazon clearly has major management problems.
inezk · 3 years ago
It's Amazon, it's not a startup.
powerbroker · 3 years ago
That is something that works under U.S. law. I wonder if such a remedy is available if tried in a Canadian court. Any Canadian attorneys out there.

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retinaros · 3 years ago
well at least the person employed has amazon on the resume and years of experience at amazon. this guy might have no name companies before amazon and abandoned a confortable position for the opportunity at amazon. id rather have 3 year at amazon on my resume while looking for a new job in this challenging time. especially in europe
woodruffw · 3 years ago
Perhaps it's not a zero-sum game, and nobody needs to be immediately laid off.
CommieBobDole · 3 years ago
I swear, if Amazon was kidnapping people off the street and grinding them up to use the slurry as machine coolant, there would be people in threads like this saying, "Well, they could use water, but it's 25% less efficient which would increase costs, and at their scale those costs would be larger than the value of the lives of the people they're grinding up, so I see where they're coming from."

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BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 · 3 years ago
You need a wrongful dismissal lawyer in the Canadian province you would have been working in. Canada has had a number of successful "wrongful hiring" lawsuits where the prospective employer has had to pay up.

Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation.

A letter from a wrongful dismissal lawyer will likely open the window to a better deal without having to file a lawsuit as companies don't like to see their name dragged in the mud with this kind of lawsuit.

benj111 · 3 years ago
>Likely you would win an amount equivalent to the severance you would be eligible for from your previous employer plus additional expenses for relocation

I wouldn't be hopeful about this. Speaking from the UK, we have wrongful dismissal that's basically a breach of contract, so you're basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks, although I think it takes a week to kick in.

You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things.

However most British employment law protections stem from eu law. Wrongful dismissal is kind of a holdover at this point so it's possible Canadian law is now very different, despite being from the same root.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 · 3 years ago
Canadian wrongful dismissal law is quite different. It's not so much the statutes as the precedents that have been developed in a number of court rulings. If you have followed the Business section of any Canadian newspaper, you would be well aware of employment law rulings in Canadian courts.

I suspect Amazon HR has assumed that they can get away in Canada with what they do in the US.

They may be about to be taught an expensive lesson.

squiffsquiff · 3 years ago
> basically eligible for the notice period, which is 2 weeks

That depends on the contract. 2 weeks might be typical for a US contract but it can certainly vary.

> You could perhaps sue for other losses due to breach of contract but it wouldn't be wrongful dismissal and it would be a major departure from the British way of doing things.

I'm sorry I don't know where you get this idea of 'the British way of doing things' I've lived here my whole life and I've never heard this. Regardless, it doesn't constitute an argument. Consequential loss is absolutely a thing.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 · 3 years ago
Yuri, After reading about your visa situation, a wrongful dismissal lawyer can claim for the extra expenses because of your visa situation including returning to home country, temporary accommodation, possibly being forced off employment market for an extended time until your visa situation is sorted out, extra travel etc.

Wrongful dismissal law (precedents) requires you to make reasonable effort to mitigate damages;so keep up your job search.

Remember that once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon.

ekanes · 3 years ago
> once you have a new job offer, any delay in beginning employment while waiting for a new visa can be claimed against Amazon

If this is the case, I wonder if it implies that you can pursue an equivalent job IN CANADA, with Amazon paying for anything lost in the process...

patrec · 3 years ago
> As a gift, they will pay me a months salary.

Have you got a signed contract? In which case them paying you is not a "gift" but something you are most likely legally entitled to, and you should find out how much they are required to pay you first of all. You can probably get a decent idea by a bit of googling, and if it looks like you are entitled to a good bit more than the one month they offered you, you should seek out an employment lawyer asap. If the law is on your side and you are lawyered up, hopefully it won't be necessary to sue them.

> In every step I tried to behave ethically and high trust.

Never trust faceless magacorps, especially not ones with a long documented pattern of screwing over their employees (and everyone else) without a second thought and right when they are going through mass lay-offs. Working for bigtech can be a great idea compensation and career wise, but never lose sight of the fact that to them you are just a replaceable cog whatever the in-house brain-washing department will try to tell you. Also, try to understand how critical the team you are hired into is to the company's current revenue streams, especially if the economy looks like it does now.

I would also suggest putting some contact details in your HN profile, maybe someone will reach out who can help (either with advice or, if you are really lucky and happen to have the right skills and tell people here about them, potentially even a visa-sponsorship; one difficulty is that you are on a short time frame and typically only larger companies will offer visa sponsorships unless you have some particular key skills).

> Are all places like this?

No, but you should be prepared to get screwed over at startups or small to medium companies as well. For faceless megacorps reading up on (ex-)employee experiences on forums like HN and glassdoor etc. is a good idea. For small companies being a good judge of character and talking to the CEO or similar as part of the interview helps.

chevman · 3 years ago
I know a few folks relatively high up in Amazon HR/TA/People Ops type roles and the scale at which they operate recruiting is nuts. Mainly driven by the insane need for people in the ops/fulfillment/delivery areas, but corp roles are also similar.

They typically make more offers than roles they have available, as they have fairly good analytics around what % of offers will not be filled post acceptance (ie someone simply never shows up for day 1 of work).

Now, fast forward to today, and as you've heard in the press, and from Amazon directly, they are slowing hiring and may even do cuts in the new year. I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts.

Still sucks and is a shitty situation.

phpisthebest · 3 years ago
While I understand this mentally it is still unethical to offer multiple people the job where by they start taking life changing steps where the employer knows full well they have extended multiple offers simply because "maybe one of them will not show up"

I have experience a few times new employee's not showing up on day 1. I would NEVER even consider extended multiple offers to people just to ensure one of them shows up. That is more than just "shitty" as you say.

lkschubert8 · 3 years ago
It's unethical because of the downside asymmetry of the two scenarios. In one someone has made significant life changes and left guaranteed income. On the opposite side a business entity won't be able to best optimize profits.
NeverFade · 3 years ago
If you can prove that the offer letter was issued in bad faith, for example the employer issued 2 offer letters for 1 position (hence one of the letters was issued for a job that doesn't exist) then I suspect you may have a legal case.

2022 exposed the fact that in the US, with its at-will employer, offer letters never offered much of a protection if they were offered in good faith, and then rescinded.

billjings · 3 years ago
> I think what you're seeing is in some areas they may be over running offers, and need to pull back and kill some post acceptance to correct based on the new reality of hiring forecasts.

There are times when you read something that conveys real depth of knowledge, sharp execution, and competence, but a complete lack of consideration for whether the thing done was right to do in the first place.

It does suck and it is a shitty situation, and it is probably a good idea to keep that framing in mind, as there is no recourse against a company the size of Amazon behaving like this towards someone without much power and influence.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is was an unethical action to take. If your forecasts include some risk, and your potential hires are taking that risk on (as H1Bs, no less), don't lie to them and tell them it's safe to quit their previous job when it's not.

benj111 · 3 years ago
Well if I turn up for a flight that's full, I get compensated, it is currently illegal in my country to ring people up and not connect them with someone. If I sign a contract to buy something in the future, I am expected to buy that thing.

If Amazon are doing this, they should be paying the full cost of their error, which is more than a month's salary.

canadianfella · 3 years ago
That’s terrible and it looks like you’re trying to justify this.
mmoustafa · 3 years ago
Very sorry to hear. The good news is there’s plenty of options to secure your immigration status while figuring out next steps.

USCIS released (somewhat relaxed) guidance on the current environment for non-citizen workers. You can find a list here https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1605392365325205506...

In summary, all the “gray zone” escape hatches like the 2 month grace period or the B-2 status change are considered “in the clear” per this guidance.

zszugyi · 3 years ago
OP's offer was in Canada and is currently in the EU, I don't think any of the USCIS policies apply to them.
YuryVladkov · 3 years ago
Sorry it is my bad that I was not being clear and forgot to add the location. Thanks for all the helps tho.
ulfw · 3 years ago
Completely irrelevant to him going to Canada. Not everyone is going to the US.
YuryVladkov · 3 years ago
It is my bad to add that it is about Canada. I am sorry.
arealaccount · 3 years ago
This happened to me a few years ago, although I did not have to worry about the visa part.

My previous job was more than happy to take me back. It felt gross, but nonetheless I went back. Turned out to be a good bet for them as I remembered and felt indebted to them.

It may work to try to contact your previous employer. In a purely rational context they should take you back and it’s a win for them.