I really wish we could buy a new car these days without some insane infotainment system. I don't even want a screen or backup cam. I know DOT requires a backup cam, but they cause more trouble than they're worth and are there largely to compensate for the beefier pylons they also require now (less likely to get crushed if you roll, but more likely to get in an accident from reduced visibility).
I've owned or rented about four cars of different make and different software bases that would occasionally freeze up when you switch out of reverse into forward, but the cam would still be up, preventing you from accessing important car functions (and distracting the driver).
I've had to look up how to reset infotainment systems on youtube because it just wouldn't turn on at all.
There was also a report of an infotainment system which would glitch out if a radio broadcasted certain characters in their station or track info, causing it to stay stuck on that radio station, even across reboots (IIRC this was traced to an ancient js lib, I may be wrong though). How much help do you think the car manufacturer offered? It was likely asymptotic with 0.
But even if infotainment systems didn't suck for all these reasons, I still wouldn't want one. They seriously just suck ass by their very nature. Just give me a vehicle.
Backup cams are mount lower and have a wider field of view than people do. They are really effective at keeping drivers from running over children. They are incredibly effective at this. Even in my low to the ground compact car, my backup cam sees things I cannot out my back window.
I'm not concerned about COPS extracting data from my car, I'm MUCH more concerned about car's OEM extracting data regularly from remote from "my" car, who is mine just formally being connected to it's OEM and who knows what others.
This is a FAR BIGGER threat even in national security terms because an unpatched vulnerability might allow acting on ALL cars in a nation, for instance blocking them in some crucial intersections paralyzing the entire traffic, or push them to consume too much all at once (EVs/plug-in hybrid) from the grid to make mass blackouts and so on.
>but they cause more trouble than they're worth and are there largely to compensate for the beefier pylons they also require now
They're a decade late knee jerk reaction to the huge rear blind spots the Ford Expeditions and Chevy Suburbans that white collar types thought were the cool hot thing to own in 2004ish and characteristically refused to take responsibility for occasionally backing over their kids with them.
The fat pillars came a tad later with side curtain airbags.
You are in the minority of drivers. Most people want updated tech in their cars, including (what I consider to be) very valuable backup cameras. I'm shocked to see this sentiment about "dumb" vehicles rising on HN.
I don't think it's that shocking to see the sentiment. People who work with computers have (IMO) a better understanding of the pitfalls that can come with their integration into systems. We are more aware of the security issues that can arise, as well as the complexity they can introduce.
I don't agree with the backup camera take (I love mine), but I otherwise generally agree with the dumb car comment. I want my vehicle to be understandable and hackable, so I can work on it without needing access to its computer as much as possible. I don't want aspects of my vehicle to be made available on the public internet. I don't want a touch screen that eliminates tactile controls.
So let me the one asking the inevitable question: short of buying a 1987 van with the environmental impact of a refinery, what are new or reasonably recent brand/models whose electronics can be hacked to the point every non essential system can be turned off, when not physically removed, without any hindrance for normal driving operations?
It really depends on your level of commitment to getting the infotainment out of the vehicle.
Most cars will have the infotainment in a CAN or flexray network with a bunch of other stuff in the cockpit.
Theoretically unless other systems are tightly integrating with the infotainment (using their GPS localization data for example) you could theoretical just snif the network through your OBD connector and find out what messages your infotainment sends (i.e. whatever messages dissapear when you power the infotainment off).
Most of the time the Body Control Module (the master of ceremonies in the cockpit) is just checking that a particular range of message IDs are being sent to 'assume' that the infotainment is 'online'. So sending those messages on the OBD port as a man-in-the-middle of sorts would theoretically keep all the other systems happy.
So I suppose it really depends on how far you are willing to go. Also I think it would be difficult to make the trim look any good after removing the central infotainment system.
My hope is that as more "legit" EVs are scrapped due to insurance total loss decisions, their guts and parts will be heavily in demand to power EV conversions.
I lost a 2018 Bolt EV this year after my insurance company decided it wasn't worth repairing. My car might not be the perfect candidate for this, but I know there will be parts worth scavenging off of it in the next life for the carcass.
I sure hope to be able to perform one of these conversions myself in the future once the broader "swap infrastructure" and knowledge bases expand to better support individuals like myself (similar to how you can find a wealth of knowledge and aftermarket support for Honda K-series engine swaps into many cars beyond even Honda models).
You don't need a 1987 van, anything before ~2007 should qualify. For example, I own a 2006 Honda. I made the mistake of leaving the windows open several years ago before a massive downpour. As a result, virtually all of my onboard electrical systems no longer function (radio, interior dashboard lights, ect) but the actual function of the car (as far as driving is concerned) is unchanged. I shudder to think about what would happen to a "smart" car in a similar situation.
Do the car manufacturers themselves also need to abuse a vulnerability to access this data that normally only the car owner has access to? Or can we trust our benevolent corporate overlords to keep this data safe on our behalf, and not abuse it, so long as "hackers" don't get it?
There was a recent article about Toyota still making old-school Land Cruisers that have little to no electronics[0] I don't think they can pass emissions tests in Europe or US though, which would make them unusable, if not unimportable.
The commercial vehicles market tend to still be "stupid". Of course this limits you to full size vans, big trucks, and things like that. I suspect "smarts" will infect these as well eventually, when it's just cheaper for the manufacturer to just include them in the build even when not asked for them.
Time to buy a ‘72 travelall. Can’t hack me if there’s nothing to hack. ETA: then swap in a modern engine and use megasquirt to run it instead of all this connected bullshit
Ah, megasquirt! If it wasn't for budget, and my utter inability to work with, or get to work, anything electronic (PCs are plug and play and some drivers, that doesn't count) I would have it or something similar on my '82 Rover V8 by now. Things are what they are, so dual carbs it will be until my estate figures out a way to add EFI. Good luck "hacking" something that has all of three fuses and a 15 year old JVC radio...
Does opening and starting it with nothing but screwdriver counts as "hacking" ? If so it can lmao.
> Ah, megasquirt! If it wasn't for budget, and my utter inability to work with, or get to work, anything electronic (PCs are plug and play and some drivers, that doesn't count) I would have it or something similar on my '82 Rover V8 by now.
Damn I thought that's a cheap option but I've looked at assembled ones and is near the price of Ecumaster...
It really depends on how "model" is being classified.
You think of a Honda Civic as a "model". But Honda has the Civic Sedan, the Civic Sedan Si, the Civic Hatchback, and the Civic Type R. All-in-all, Honda has 13 different "models" listed on their US page. We can assume most other major manufacturers follow suit.
Then some of them may be broken down even further into more ultimately meaningless categories. Yes, the Civic Type R STX Bayonetta Dragon Hyper Ultimate Vroom Vroom edition may be a different "model", but all I see is Civic with too many fucking qualifiers.
And all of them will be using the same base infotainment package. Which isn't ultimately a big deal. You'd want some sort of consistency between your vehicles. Except when there's an issue like this. Then not one model, but every model has an issue.
Readit News
I've owned or rented about four cars of different make and different software bases that would occasionally freeze up when you switch out of reverse into forward, but the cam would still be up, preventing you from accessing important car functions (and distracting the driver).
I've had to look up how to reset infotainment systems on youtube because it just wouldn't turn on at all.
There was also a report of an infotainment system which would glitch out if a radio broadcasted certain characters in their station or track info, causing it to stay stuck on that radio station, even across reboots (IIRC this was traced to an ancient js lib, I may be wrong though). How much help do you think the car manufacturer offered? It was likely asymptotic with 0.
But even if infotainment systems didn't suck for all these reasons, I still wouldn't want one. They seriously just suck ass by their very nature. Just give me a vehicle.
Backup cams are mount lower and have a wider field of view than people do. They are really effective at keeping drivers from running over children. They are incredibly effective at this. Even in my low to the ground compact car, my backup cam sees things I cannot out my back window.
This is a FAR BIGGER threat even in national security terms because an unpatched vulnerability might allow acting on ALL cars in a nation, for instance blocking them in some crucial intersections paralyzing the entire traffic, or push them to consume too much all at once (EVs/plug-in hybrid) from the grid to make mass blackouts and so on.
They're a decade late knee jerk reaction to the huge rear blind spots the Ford Expeditions and Chevy Suburbans that white collar types thought were the cool hot thing to own in 2004ish and characteristically refused to take responsibility for occasionally backing over their kids with them.
The fat pillars came a tad later with side curtain airbags.
Oh man! I recently rented a car after a very long time; really loved CarPlay experience.
This is interesting and not something I was aware of. Since when does DOT require that?
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V/p...
I don't agree with the backup camera take (I love mine), but I otherwise generally agree with the dumb car comment. I want my vehicle to be understandable and hackable, so I can work on it without needing access to its computer as much as possible. I don't want aspects of my vehicle to be made available on the public internet. I don't want a touch screen that eliminates tactile controls.
Most cars will have the infotainment in a CAN or flexray network with a bunch of other stuff in the cockpit.
Theoretically unless other systems are tightly integrating with the infotainment (using their GPS localization data for example) you could theoretical just snif the network through your OBD connector and find out what messages your infotainment sends (i.e. whatever messages dissapear when you power the infotainment off).
Most of the time the Body Control Module (the master of ceremonies in the cockpit) is just checking that a particular range of message IDs are being sent to 'assume' that the infotainment is 'online'. So sending those messages on the OBD port as a man-in-the-middle of sorts would theoretically keep all the other systems happy.
So I suppose it really depends on how far you are willing to go. Also I think it would be difficult to make the trim look any good after removing the central infotainment system.
I lost a 2018 Bolt EV this year after my insurance company decided it wasn't worth repairing. My car might not be the perfect candidate for this, but I know there will be parts worth scavenging off of it in the next life for the carcass.
I sure hope to be able to perform one of these conversions myself in the future once the broader "swap infrastructure" and knowledge bases expand to better support individuals like myself (similar to how you can find a wealth of knowledge and aftermarket support for Honda K-series engine swaps into many cars beyond even Honda models).
Forgive me if I don't feel reassured, given Honda's response to Rolling-PWN.
> Previous reports claimed that Tesla infotainment systems stored Wi-Fi and Spotify passwords.
Like... how else is the car supposed to connect to wifi? And the new OS just has you sign into music services through a qr code.
0: https://www.carscoops.com/2022/11/this-shop-in-gibraltar-mod...
> Ah, megasquirt! If it wasn't for budget, and my utter inability to work with, or get to work, anything electronic (PCs are plug and play and some drivers, that doesn't count) I would have it or something similar on my '82 Rover V8 by now.
Damn I thought that's a cheap option but I've looked at assembled ones and is near the price of Ecumaster...
You think of a Honda Civic as a "model". But Honda has the Civic Sedan, the Civic Sedan Si, the Civic Hatchback, and the Civic Type R. All-in-all, Honda has 13 different "models" listed on their US page. We can assume most other major manufacturers follow suit.
Then some of them may be broken down even further into more ultimately meaningless categories. Yes, the Civic Type R STX Bayonetta Dragon Hyper Ultimate Vroom Vroom edition may be a different "model", but all I see is Civic with too many fucking qualifiers.
And all of them will be using the same base infotainment package. Which isn't ultimately a big deal. You'd want some sort of consistency between your vehicles. Except when there's an issue like this. Then not one model, but every model has an issue.
Possibly software version than hardware. Still high to me. How many different Android phone systems are there?