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Posted by u/san_amiro 4 years ago
Tell HN: Apple Pay works in non-Safari browsers in iOS 16 Beta 3
I was just poking around on a Shopify store on my Firefox browser and saw Apple Pay button showed up, first thought it's a front-end bug on the website but tapped on it and the widget slid up and you can legibly make the purchase!

Tried on Chrome too and it worked there too!

Tried a few other website and can confirm it works everywhere Apple Pay is offered. is it a feature? bug?

Wanna try it yourself? you can check this Stripe test page https://stripe.com/docs/stripe-js/elements/payment-request-b...

Haven't installed Beta 4 yet to see if it is still working.

sandstrom · 4 years ago
Probably preparations due to the upcoming EU framework.

As a short summary, here are some of the new EU requirements on gatekeepers such as Apple.

Gatekeepers must:

- Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet.

- Allow developers to offer third-party payment systems in apps and promote offers outside the gatekeeper's platforms.

- Allow developers to integrate their apps and digital services directly with those belonging to a gatekeeper. This includes making messaging, voice-calling, and video-calling services interoperable with third-party services upon request.

- Give developers access to any hardware feature, such as "near-field communication technology, secure elements and processors, authentication mechanisms, and the software used to control those technologies."

- Ensure that all apps are uninstallable and give users the ability to unsubscribe from core platform services under similar conditions to subscription.

- Give users the option to change the default voice assistant to a third-party option.

- Share data and metrics with developers and competitors, including marketing and advertising performance data.

Gatekeepers may no longer:

- Pre-install certain software applications and require users to use any important default software services such as web browsers.

- Require app developers to use certain services or frameworks, including browser engines, payment systems, and identity providers, to be listed in app stores.

- Give their own products, apps, or services preferential treatment or rank them higher than those of others.

- Reuse private data collected during a service for the purposes of another service.

- Establish unfair conditions for business users.

zaptrem · 4 years ago
- Give developers access to any hardware feature, such as "near-field communication technology, secure elements and processors, authentication mechanisms, and the software used to control those technologies."

Here comes the Meta App Store to bypass all iOS privacy protections :(

I really like the idea of an eject button to run arbitrary code and operating systems on my pocket computer, but 99% of the time I want it to "just work." If I valued the former over the latter I would have bought an Android phone.

mmh0000 · 4 years ago
A better way to think of it, is:

Here comes F-Droid to further enhance iOS with privacy respecting applications

root_axis · 4 years ago
Why would you download the Meta App store to begin with?
dvngnt_ · 4 years ago
> - Give developers access to any hardware feature, such as "near-field communication technology, secure elements and processors, authentication mechanisms, and the software used to control those technologies."

> Here comes the Meta App Store to bypass all iOS privacy protections :(

> I really like the idea of an eject button to run arbitrary code and operating systems on my pocket computer, but 99% of the time I want it to "just work." If I valued the former over the latter I would have bought an Android phone.

> - Give developers access to any hardware feature, such as "near-field communication technology, secure elements and processors, authentication mechanisms, and the software used to control those technologies."

> Here comes the Meta App Store to bypass all iOS privacy protections :(

> I really like the idea of an eject button to run arbitrary code and operating systems on my pocket computer, but 99% of the time I want it to "just work." If I valued the former over the latter I would have bought an Android phone.

i value choice. no one is forcing you to download meta

e63f67dd-065b · 4 years ago
I think this worry is overblown. We already have this on android, and FB/WhatsApp are still on the Google App Store. FB could start an alternative FB App Store tomorrow on android much more than they can on iOS and it’s been shown that nobody bothers.
rtpg · 4 years ago
I don’t think this means that the iOS permissions system doesn’t stay in place. This is basically “you can’t just allowlist certain phone features to your own software”
pharmakom · 4 years ago
Proper Firefox HERE WE COME!!!!
eps · 4 years ago
> - Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet.

Any provisions to allow sideloading unsigned apps?

Because if you can sideload, but it still needs to be signed by Apple, the whole thing is largely moot.

cassianoleal · 4 years ago
Not entirely moot. This would be more or less equivalent to macOS's "Allow apps downloaded from App Store and identified developers". This allows people to publish software without abiding by the App Store's rules and review process, as well as the 30% cut on sales.

Perhaps it doesn't go as far as you'd like but it's not moot either.

jshzglr · 4 years ago
It seems like every perceived problem these days is grounds for legislation. Let’s work on additive solutions as opposed to regulation.
frosted-flakes · 4 years ago
What do you suggest?
g8oz · 4 years ago
Today's hardest problems require government action. Techno-optimism and the free market fairy will not save us.
cgb223 · 4 years ago
Does this mean I can finally have a browser running its own rendering engine that supports its own extensions in iOS?
DelightOne · 4 years ago
> Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet.

Do third-party app stores have to pay fees to Apple for each purchase? Can they change the rate from the current 30%? That's what I'm wondering about.

amelius · 4 years ago
Where will that leave US users?
KerrAvon · 4 years ago
My guess would be paying higher prices to pick up the slack for the missing EU users when the "gatekeepers" abandon or greatly shrink operations in the EU after evaluating the cost of compliance.
smoldesu · 4 years ago
This is really awesome. I'm sure there will be anecdotal refutations of this legislation on HN, but this is a great list of consumer rights to start with. Almost gives me a little bit of hope for a future of technology that isn't controlled by 3 or 4 companies.
jeshin · 4 years ago
i hadn't heard about this, that certainly sounds pretty good
thehappypm · 4 years ago
I hate that you cant sideload today but its gonna lead to tons of malware
donmcronald · 4 years ago
Alternatively we may end up with better app stores with far less malware and trash. As much as apple enthusiasts like to claim the app store is as good as it can get, there's a ton of room for improvement IMO. Just getting rid of the games that prey on children and addiction would be a good start.
rjh29 · 4 years ago
Does Android have a malware problem with sideloading? The majority of users don't know how to sideload and don't do it. Technical users hopefully know what they're doing. In any event, if you google "android malware" most of the results are apps that slipped into the app store:

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/malware-hits-10-million-andro...

ceejayoz · 4 years ago
Non-Safari browsers on iOS are still Safari's rendering engine, aren't they?

I just wish it'd work on Firefox on my Mac. If not that, I'd love a popup that told me the page supports Apple Pay, so I can checkout with Safari instead.

PascLeRasc · 4 years ago
I have a Firefox extension that does this, but it only works on some sites and it's very much not complete. https://github.com/mike-u/firefox-apple-pay
ceejayoz · 4 years ago
"SO post trying to accomplish this" is mine, lol.
Angostura · 4 years ago
I wish Firefox on the Mac supported Keychain. Chrome does.
jkingsman · 4 years ago
This is not a new API AFAIK. The Payment API[0] has been around for a while. MDN's got the full skinny [1].

[0]: https://webkit.org/blog/8182/introducing-the-payment-request...

[1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Payment_Req...

8191 · 4 years ago
I have 15.6 stable installed and when opening the Stripe test page I receive an error in Firefox (“Either your browser does not support the Payment Request API, or you do not have a saved payment method.”)
altairprime · 4 years ago
iOS 16 beta apparently provides the framework updates necessary for third-party iOS App Store browsers to use it. So you won’t be able to use it on 15.X unless they backport, which is unlikely.
lwansbrough · 4 years ago
The API isn't new but being able to use it in 3rd party browsers on iOS is.
hk1337 · 4 years ago
Is this intended for actual non-Safari browsers like actual Chrome or Firefox on iOS or just what there is now where Chrome and Firefox on top of the same WebKit engine as Safari?
MBCook · 4 years ago
Everything is still Safari underneath. That’s probably never changing as long as Apple has a say (that new EU law may force it).

But this would mean you could use ApplePay from the current FireFox app.

dawiddr · 4 years ago
Apple Pay has been supported in WebKit’s web view (which every browser uses) for a while now, but with some conditions. The biggest obstacle was that an app couldn’t inject any JavaScript code of its own into websites. I wonder if they removed this safeguard.
jefftk · 4 years ago
They must have removed that: if you're building your own browser you definitely want to be able to inject JavaScript code, because one of your few options for differentiating yourself on iOS is supporting browser features that Apple hasn't prioritized implementing yet. Both Chrome and Firefox do this by injecting polyfills.
throwaway821909 · 4 years ago
You're probably right but it's not like Apple wouldn't take the chance to kill that off if they thought they could get away with it
freediver · 4 years ago
It does not seem to be the case on macOS.
tomxor · 4 years ago
No it doesn't, because there is no such thing as a non-safari browser on iOS.

Firefox, Chrome, anything Apple will allow is just Safari in a different costume.

freediver · 4 years ago
Except they use their own browser features, sync, telemetry, privacy practices, business model etc...
tomxor · 4 years ago
All of those things are ancillary except for privacy (even though privacy capability is closely tied to the browser engine these days). It's like saying it must be a Cadillac... "but I can choose the seat colours and stereo so that counts for something!" - i mean sure if you value the stereo that much but you have no choice over the things that makes it what it is, the engine.
madeofpalk · 4 years ago
Brave and Edge is not Chrome.
jefftk · 4 years ago
Brave and Edge can compile the Chromium code base with any changes they want, including adding or removing features. On iOS that is not something alternative browsers are able to do.
tomxor · 4 years ago
it doesn't matter what it's called, the underlying engine of any "browser" app available on iOS is apple-webkit. Because you aren't allowed browser engines on iOS, Apple rules, it's all a bunch of skins. Apple are so good at selling the lie of diversity that hardly anyone seems to notice this seemingly obvious truth... you aren't allowed to chose a browser on iOS.
samwillis · 4 years ago
This is good news, I hope they make it available in all “In App Browsers” (IABs) too, along with all saved payment cards in your key chain.

As a data point from an online retailer, we kept seeing a significantly high (I think it was something ridiculous like 30%) drop out at the check out payment screen for all Facebook/Instagram ad customers.

What was happening was they were clicking on ads, coming to our site, going to purchase and then when they reached payment didn’t have access to Apple Pay or there saved card details. The in app browsers have an “open in Safari” button, they were clicking that - so they could use their prefers payment method - and loosing their session and shopping cart. It was catastrophic!

We ultimate fixed the issue with a warning message to customers who are within an IAB.

IABs are bad for advertisers, they only serve to keep users within the social media app.

Anyone with the Beta, I would love to know if either Apple Pay or key chain saved cards are available now in social media IABs.

solarkraft · 4 years ago
> The in app browsers have an “open in Safari” button, they were clicking that - so they could use their prefers payment method - and loosing their session and shopping cart. It was catastrophic!

This is one of the few instances in which Android went to some lengths to provide a good UX. An IAB can transition into the real thing without even re-rendering or blinking - and it has all the user data of the main browser.

jefftk · 4 years ago
That's not quite right. A real in-app browser on Android, like Facebook's, has fully independent state. But Android also supports a feature called Custom Tabs, where you can have something that looks an acts a lot like an in-app browser but is actually your default browser under the hood. The embedding app gives up some control over it, and can't for example, inject custom JavaScript, but in exchange it shares state with the default browser.

More: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/android/custom-tabs/

notsound · 4 years ago
I am using the beta, and I was able to make a purchase with Apple Pay via something resembling an IAB.
solarkraft · 4 years ago
As far as I know there are no non-Safari browsers on iOS yet.
freediver · 4 years ago
Every non-Safari browesr on iOS is a non-Safari browser :) You probably meant no non-WebKit browsers on iOS.
n8cpdx · 4 years ago
Do you know if extensions work, too? That was the big thing keeping me off Firefox on iOS, and thus, Firefox on Mac.

I want something that syncs to all my devices and supports extensions on all my devices.

TBH not allowing safari extensions to work in non-safari browsers felt almost anticompetitive, but I do recognize that there are some UI challenges to solve. Apple Pay was the other big feature I was missing out on.

resfirestar · 4 years ago
I have the beta on an iPad and no sign of extensions. Another pain point for me is that the system password manager doesn't work as well as it does with Safari (and sometimes not at all), and that does not seem to have improved either.