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Posted by u/noduerme 4 years ago
Ask HN: Will creative people have jobs in 10 years?
I've been a skeptic of AI replacing top-level art directors, designers, illustrators, SWEs, etc. for a long time, because I think it can copy well but can't create or interpret.

Today was my first full day of coding inducted into Copilot. I know a lot of you folks have had the fun of playing with it for a long time.

I have a particular way of writing code after 25 years, certain idiosyncrasies. Just as a cheap shot example, I write mysql queries in PHP by defining the whole string first as a variable named $someQ = "SELECT * FROM table WHERE id=:id;" and then, rather than binding the variables, I prefer to compile the query as $someZ = $conn->prepare($someQ); and then $someZ->execute(array(":id"=>$id)).

This isn't a usual way of doing things. Copilot tried to bind the vars the first time I did it. The second time, it set up the array. The third time, when I wrote $insQ as the name of the an insertion string, and $insZ as the query that would execute it, Copilot wrote $updQ and $updZ by itself as the names of variables for the update string and update query. For the record, I checked and I've never named a variable $updQ or $updZ... I usually use $uQ and $uZ. It made that up. It stopped trying to bind vars and inserted them into the execute statement. It guessed contextually almost 100% which vars I wanted to bind. This was beyond magic; obviously it read a huge amount of unrelated code in my stack to come to those conclusions from this one small file. But no one besides me uses this naming convention.

It was magic; scary magic.

I spent my evening shooting pool and drinking with bar friends; one's an ex-marine who works for the government and another's a guy who manages ops and software for a small company. They're lamenting that it's impossible in this country for anyone to make enough to afford an apartment. This never seemed hard to me. I just wrote code and got paid a lot for being good at it. Or I made graphics that could probably now be done by DALL-E.

It's been my opinion for awhile that consumers and users of software were redundant. Maybe now we're redundant, too. But in that case, who is talking to whom? What human born today has the experience of struggling to learn something, and what would they accomplish if they did learn it if a giant cloud filter could already translate their thoughts into art or code that would take them years of experience to comprehend, let alone write for themselves?

Are we the last generation to learn skills? And what happens when everyone's skill set is just telling a cloud filter what to make for them? Will that be okay...?

I feel like this is fundamentally different from the shift from Assembly to C to BASIC to Java or the fact that coders now don't think in terms of the metal. This is not "clip art" taking over the illustration space.

I feel like I've woken up halfway through a wholesale replacement of all creative industries with robots, at a point where all consumers (or measurements of consumers) have been fully replaced by robots. Having been in a niche for so long, I ignored it and thought that it would never be a real threat. I'm admitting now that it is.

Where do we go from here? How do we avoid a dead creative class spamming dead code and dead art to an already-dead consumer internet?

m-i-l · 4 years ago
All the AI algorithms at the moment need to be trained with human input, e.g. Copilot works on largely human written code, GPT-3 is 60% Common Crawl[0], DALL-E uses 400 million images scraped from the internet[1], etc. I suspect weird things like feedback loops will start to happen if you train generative AI algorithms on the output of generative AI algorithms rather than human input.

Worth noting that people have had these sorts of worries for over 200 years - see e.g. the Luddites[2] and Luddite fallacy[3]. While new forms of technology do make certain forms of employment obsolete, they also introduce many new forms, e.g. who would have thought 20 years ago that there would be people making a living from being a "social media influencer", or even writing and maintaining software like Copilot.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPT-3

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DALL-E

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The...

totetsu · 4 years ago
It strikes me that most of this human input was taken without real consent of the original people who worked to make it. It's not exactly loom smashing to see that as kind of theft.
noduerme · 4 years ago
I was thinking a lot of John Henry today; you make a good analogy.
belltaco · 4 years ago
Is pirating movies and music also 'kind of theft' or do we have different standards for when it's our type of work vs. someone else's.
ushakov · 4 years ago
> who would have thought 20 years ago that there would be people making a living from being a "social media influencer"

a very useful, highly sought-after and an important profession!

rchaud · 4 years ago
On the same token, 20 years ago you had a reasonably good chance of becoming a programmer if you knew HTML. Not JS, not Perl, but basic-ass HTML.

The average influencer in 2022 isn't making any more money than the guys that stand outside stores flipping a giant sign to grab the attention of passers-by.

vikaveri · 4 years ago
Definitely deserving a seat reservation on Ark Fleet Ship B
more_corn · 4 years ago
Alpha go learns from self play. A google AI spontaneously invented a communications protocol. GANs work fantastically. The need for human input for training is vastly overestimated.
mihaic · 4 years ago
There is one important thing Copilot doesn't do yet, and that's to say: "I can implement that, but is there a chance you wanted to solve a different problem here, which might be Y?"

One of the criteria I have for a professional is to understand how their work fits into the wider context, and be able to juggle multiple vantage points. Most developers now are amateurs that just stitch together code from npm, Stack Overflow and random github repos to create unmaintainable messes. Their work might be made redundant, or even sadder it might be that quality will become even more irrelevant, and all that matters is how well developers can sell themselves.

Whatever might happen, solid fundamentals and knowing how to best abstract the real world with minimal complexity will still be useful in the next 10-20 years.

LrnByTeach · 4 years ago
As many alluded in the comments , here is what I envision 10 years from now.

best programmers will be in still in demand in 10 years.

Best programmers (who understand requirements well and write concise code, etc..) are only less than 1/3 of total programmer population as of TODAY. What 2/3 of the total programmers doing today can be done by 20% of this current 2/3 group at similar ( or better) quality with the help of COPILOT like tools.

This tedious task of finding answers will be the job of GPT Codex/Copilot in near future

Future of Coding is AI pair programming

Between 2025 -2030 GPT-8 Codex/Copilot kind of tools enable developers write "better" code, regardless of their SKILL LEVEL ( this is with the 2/3 programmer population as of TODAY).

Even in 2030 we still need best programmers, whose programming patterns will be still be input to GPT-10 kind of tools.

Like "Peak oil" , "Peak automobiles" ( we are almost there), we will be reaching "Peak programmers" in few short years, then decline from there onwards.

LrnByTeach · 4 years ago
Copilot ( and others in it's class) is a paradigm shift:

What is software development: let AI generate most code then REVIEW code for accuracy, completion, security etc.. and test it

What is NOT software development : "solving age old problems" via Stackoverflow

By 2030 tools like Copilot create 'two-tier programmers'

-Tier 1 (squeeze 10x from Copilot) : writes 'prompts' and 'function signatures' for AI tools likes of CoPilot as part of technical design, from which Copilot will generate 80% of the code

-Tier 2: will check completeness & execute generated test suite

ushakov · 4 years ago
software development will be devalued and turned into low-pay undesirable work

the only currency in this world is ownership and job-takers take no ownership in their work because they choose to trade their finite time and valuable IP for peanut butter

totetsu · 4 years ago
That IP can be owned is only due to laws that say it can be, or it is kept a secret. What happens when the effort to make software to solve a specific problem becomes trivial, and the model of ownership is based on made up agreements? Do the ones who hold all the data to train the algorithms, who have access to large scale computing resources hold all the value?
paskozdilar · 4 years ago
> the only currency in this world is ownership and job-takers take no ownership in their work because they choose to trade their finite time and valuable IP for peanut butter

What's the alternative?

ushakov · 4 years ago
that’s why people need a CS degree

to understand what they are actually doing

but companies don’t care, all they want is that lemon juice extracted by cheap labour

capableweb · 4 years ago
> that’s why people need a CS degree

That's the wrong takeaway. Plenty of people know how to build "what's needed" instead of "what's requested", CS degree or not.

I'm not super confident it correlates at all, but if I were to make a guess, I'd say that people with CS degrees are more likely to focus on the wrong things (eg: take requirements as they are without thinking about the why and optimize the requirements given to them) compared to people who got into tech other ways. But that's just based on anecdotal data, won't apply everywhere and so on.

Kelm · 4 years ago
Having a degree and „understanding what you are actually doing” might be correlated, but that doesn’t imply causation. At least my small sample size of experiences would suggest otherwise.
Glawen · 4 years ago
Why it has to be a CS degree? It is about requirements management and many non CS degree use this skill (typical in engineering)

Deleted Comment

jzellis · 4 years ago
I've been a writer and musician my entire life, since I was a kid. I'm also a professional coder and I have a decent understanding of how things like neural net modeling work, and the intermediate concepts of both strong and weak AI.

And when you find me an AI that can do this, I'll happily concede the goddamn planet to them.

https://youtu.be/N8uk9Ql8J-A

instagraham · 4 years ago
There is a tendency among the technocratic-minded to dismiss the creative and social science fields, mostly because they have yet to explore the depths of these pursuits.

To reach even a degree of knowledge in any of them is to understand just how important nuance is necessary to becoming a good musician, social scientist, journalist, writer, author, painter, designer and even politician.

Can you program nuance? You could certainly try. And maybe you could create something that supplements these fields. And maybe you could try hiring AIs to do some of their work for them, and believe in some meritocratic pipe dream that you have somehow done society a good deed by hurting the job pool of a bunch of underpaid professionals.

They will still be needed. And when they are not, only the social scientists will be able to explain what that will do to the human psyche. Or anyone with an understanding of what high unemployment rates have done to once-powerful states

notahacker · 4 years ago
The other thing is a lot of the time it's nuance on top of dead simple stuff, and humans actually get something out of seeing humans perform.

You don't need advanced AI to compose a blues, a toy script calling RNGs will give you a chord progression and rhythm of the backing track that 'works' and decent DSP will replicate authentic sound with great consistency. In fact, I'm pretty confident the toy script will consistently generate progressions which appeal to enthusiasts more than the neural network with a corpus of all the greatest blues performances in history, in much the same way I'd trust a pocket calculator over GPT-3 to perform basic addition. But the sum of those parts still isn't quite the same as watching a bearded middle aged bloke with a guitar trot out the same basic chord progression over a slightly sloppy drummer, so people rarely pay to watch blues soloists (themselves often playing something which in terms of basic composition is just common variations on a scale) play over a prerecording.

libertine · 4 years ago
>And when you find me an AI that can do this, I'll happily concede the goddamn planet to them.

We underestimated flaws, sloppiness, mistakes and changes in tempo, stuff that makes us humans and we can relate to. Rick Beato, a music producer & youtuber that has a video series where he breaks some of this stuff down in "What makes this song great"[0].

I like Jimmy Page a lot, and I know he isn't known to be the best technical guitar player, but the songs he makes and plays (especially in live performances, with the whole LZ band of course), it's just magical.

Can that be emulated? Maybe, eventually, down the line.

But the question that will eventually arise: do we care more about the arrangement of notes, chords, instruments, or the story behind it?

I don't have any doubt that machines might be able to produce music that's pleasant to hear, that gives you goosebumps, that will be #1 in some charts, and we will listen to it. But we relate to other humans too much to replace them, I believe we will always seek the human condition because we relate so much to it.

How would an AI come up with Bob Dylan, that doesn't sing well, but it's bound to a time and place.

A quick anecdote: an ex girlfriend of mine taught me how to appreciate a bit more of art, to go beyond the "it's pretty" you need context, the story of the artist, what was the status quo and what did they disrupt at that point in time.

To have NFTs that are procedural generated, or trippy images made by an AI, might be technical achievements but of little value to my human experience.

A cynic might say: "if you didn't know, you would be a sucker! One day an AI will create his own back story and produce art and you will be a sucker to eat it like it was the real deal! Maybe there's one already!" - so what? We are deceived on a daily basis, and we're easy to be deceived in some areas more than others, we even fool ourselves. The problem is that when you realize you're deceived, you empty the thing of it's value, and you move on with your life.

Don't think too much of it just because it was able to fool a human.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFVpSjRUD2E&list=PLW0NGgv1qn...

ilamont · 4 years ago
Here's a little thought experiment. Someone invents an AI that can create songs in the style of any band based on existing recordings as well as known market trends at the time. And you want Led Zeppelin 1970, at the heart of the British blues/hard rock/psychedelic period, because Led Zeppelin 1978 doesn't sound that good owing to the creative core shifting away from Page and the general floundering of "Classic Rock" artists at that time amidst the punk/New Wave movements.

So your AI whips up a fantastic Led Zep 1970 album. And it sounds almost nothing like Led Zeppelin III, which was actually released that year.

How could it? The inputs were Led Zeppelin I (composed and recorded late 1968) and Led Zeppelin II (composed and recorded while on tour in 1969) not to mention the other trends taking place in the British music scene, from Hey Jude to War Pigs as well as American influences like Jimi Hendrix and CSNY.

Led Zeppelin III came out of left field, from a desire of the band to switch things up and take a break from what they had been doing for the first two albums. They did a lot of writing and some recording at an isolated farmhouse in Wales. It's more acoustic, and it's quite wonderful.

I don't think any AI could pull it off even with some setting like "skew acoustic" because little of that existed in the band's earlier output, Page's Yardbirds work, or even the mid-60s studio musician sessions completed by Jones and Page in London. What the "Led Zeppelin 1970" AI would turn out is something more akin to the hard rock/psychedelic sound of the first 2 albums and reworkings of obscure American Delta blues songs.

Would it be fun to listen to? Maybe. But it wouldn't represent the creative evolution and experimentation of the band, which comes about from 4 very talented people (and sometimes other out-of-sight creative forces) working together and sometimes making unpredictable discoveries, mistakes, and wrong turns.

noduerme · 4 years ago
>> The problem is that when you realize you're deceived, you empty the thing of it's value, and you move on with your life.

Tell that to Nickelback fans. Or every 12 year old girl who thought Green Day was a punk band or Maroon 5 was a rock band. They pass on into their 20s and don't think back. They've never heard good music and that's the end of it. Now they're 40 and humming along. Not to get off topic here, but since you bring it up, music is the first place that programming people by computer has been manifest for the last 20 years. And basically no new music has been created since that wasn't a deeper iteration of what was already known to sell. Movies are only about 5 years behind the music industry. Books are just catching up, and art and code are imminent.

nl · 4 years ago
I think trying to to replace perhaps the greatest male pop singer of a generation is a stretch.

And even if AI can't replace Jeff Buckley it doesn't mean that the jobs of many working musicians doing things like backing music for corporate videos aren't at risk.

ricochet11 · 4 years ago
this is the threat. not needing voiceover actors for your ads, not needing actors for stock videos, not needing musicians for a jingle. taking away the work and economy that gives you a place to start and keeps you fed. The support for someone who might one day become a jeff buckley if there was money for them to spend time learning and practicing and honing their skills.

so many big film actors get started in small tv adverts, so many musicians support their ambitious solo albums after work spending the day as session musician for some video game soundtrack. etc.

of course the artists never stop and wont go away, but the economics of it all may end up pretty brutal and demoralising, theres already so little respect and fractions of pennies paid for listening to your music. add to that the fact that many people will probably happily listen to the spotify AI generated band that can spit out music on demand in any style based on a search query...

Copenjin · 4 years ago
The creative part of programming is not writing code, is defining and simplifying the business logic of what you need to do and troubleshooting issues, both things require real reasoning, huge domain knowledge, gut feelings, an investigative approach, etc...

Creative jobs will be the only ones that will remain one day, but the meaning of "creative" could be redefined or expanded in the coming decades.

ushakov · 4 years ago
> Creative jobs will be the only ones that will remain one day

i think it will be the opposite

the only jobs remain would be stupid bullshit jobs

creative jobs will only become more competitive

in capitalism system the future doesn’t look bright for proletariat

noduerme · 4 years ago
This is my fear.
idontwantthis · 4 years ago
I'm so confused when people say copilot is magical, or even particularly helpful. I used it for a few days, and it would offer interfaces that sounded right, but didn't exist, or it would try to implement an entire function for me that just trailed off into nonsense.

It was best at writing comments on a function that had already been written.

There were one or two times that it guessed correctly at code I wanted.

noduerme · 4 years ago
I don't know how it was a few months ago. From what I heard, it would be like you said. It wasn't. It somehow searched my whole code stack and figured out my naming conventions, my preference for quotes (` ' ") in different languages, figured out how I bound variables that were passed JS > JSON > PHP > MySQL or JS > Node and was able to complete data structures that it had no fucking business knowing from the limited structural references it was provided. It was always wrong in every suggestion, but close enough to run. It seemed to even cue in on which version of weird little libraries I was using; for instance in one project that's been stuck in Bootstrap 4.0 Alpha it wrote the right event closures and referenced the right classes even though those are totally deprecated. In another case it identified the version of JQuery 3.2 in a project. When I had to throw an upload dropzone in a spot, it literally wrote the whole thing without me linking Dropzone.js and was within one or two slash-dots of identifying the upload target in an almost totally random new folder I'd created.

What kind of usage info it's pulling from every other thing you touch in VSCode is a source of wonder...

natly · 4 years ago
I agree, but since this question is about 10 years from now I can totally see how it might get like way way better within that time.
artdigital · 4 years ago
That was my first experience too, but when I retried it this year I was surprised to see how much better it got

I now use copilot regularly to spin up longer functions that aren’t hard to write, but would take time. With copilot I’m now finished within seconds

idontwantthis · 4 years ago
Thanks, I'll give it another try.
DamonHD · 4 years ago
My broad view is that each time another "magic" tech comes along, eg macro assemblers, high-level compilers, high-level compilers with proof-based whole-system optimisation, ... etc ... the best human contribution just moves up the abstraction level a bit. And given the maxim that (in this case) one can write about the same number of debugged lines of code at each level, the result is more interesting and productive over time.

We're not dead/redundant yet, IMHO.

orangepurple · 4 years ago
We are already at the point where if you want to implement something socially impactful you need buy-in and investment from billionaires because the relative costs of opportunity, living, and relative level of taxation is absurd. We're heading full speed ahead into a new form of feudalism. If you want a good laugh read about the Roman tax system and see how people had it in the old days.
notahacker · 4 years ago
But apart from universal education, healthcare, retirement, unemployment solutions that didn't involve indentured servitude and not having our civilization sacked by tribes from the East, what did not living on Roman budgets ever do for us... :)
orangepurple · 4 years ago
The "What did the Romans ever do for us?" Monty Python skit is a classic
wruza · 4 years ago
Are we the last generation to learn skills?

It would be nice actually to not have to have skills only tangentially or coincidentally relevant to the task. Our skills are often a thing in itself, e.g. you may know how to write SQL, but what you really want is to run (or to help run) a business. Is writing SQL a skill? Yes. Is it relevant to what you really want? Barely. The same for washing brushes, setting up routers, cutting vegetables.

We drown in ourself invented complexity and are scared of the perspective of living a true life. Those who were sleeping cogs will wake up. Those who want to do SQL will do it anyway, as a hobby. But what will they do to make a living? Haha, why would we bigcorps and elites even care. You’ll do something, maybe. We just have to make sure you can’t riot.