English kings flirted on and off with Catholicism throughout the 1600s, up to the point where in 1685 the old king converted on his deathbed and his successor was an unapologetic Catholic. For Protestants during this time it was often difficult to thread the needle of being anti-Catholic without appearing disloyal to the king.
Constant remembrance of the Gunpowder Plot provided a saving grace out of this dilemma. Protestants cared too much about the monarch's life to stop being suspicious about Catholicism, regardless of what he might tell them otherwise.
There were strong political reasons to make a lot out of the Gunpowder Plot as late as 1745, when a Catholic-led invasion army made it most of the way to London.
My (non uk) friend ask me a simple question.. Is the 5th November a celebration of Guy Fawlkes getting captured or a celebration of him trying to get rid of the government
I thought everyone/ most UK people would know the real answer and after asking around it appears it's not clear cut.
Anecdotically (asking about 8 people from the UK) 5 people thought bonfire day was celebrated for Guy Fawlkes being captured. (ie killed for trying to burn down parliament) but a few (3) of the 5 people I asked where mostly guessing and was not really sure.
Neither. It’s just “Fireworks Night” or November 5th. Everyone knows about Guy Fawkes trying to blow up Parliament and then getting tortured etc. And if you’re actually ask people how they feel about that story, sure you’ll get a range of different answers, and it will probably seem to correlate with people’s political proclivities and you’ll make some spurious inferences. But honestly, as a Brit who has experienced 35 Fireworks Nights, no one is discussing or concerned with the Guy Fawkes story any more than they are discussing or concerned with the morality of elves at Christmas. It’s purely about fireworks and large, public night time gatherings (fun).
I actually think this might be a good thing!? When I was taught about the gunpowder plot it was presented as a serious of facts rather than a judgment like "this person was evil and got what they deserved" it was "this is what happened, this is why they did it, these were the consequences" a judgement on whether there was virtue in the actions or not was not really a part of it. That's probably a good way to present history?
I do remember as a child having a lot of sympathy for Fawkes and the others!
To me it is a commemoration rather than a celebration. Though I've always enjoyed the spectacle of it all since well before I knew any of the history.
The former. The pope was also burned in effigy alongside or in place of Guy Fawkes: a celebration of the defeat of the plot and the continuation of the protestant succession to the crown.
Curiously, I was raised as a Catholic and we were absolutely celebrating Guy Fawkes’ Night when I was small (when I got older it drifted into “fireworks night” and stopped having a connection beyond gunpowder). Made our own effigies and burned them, too.
I think that the United Kingdom would have been a very different place had this come to pass.
"Guy Fawkes’ Night, the ‘Fifth of November’, has been popular and long-lived for two different reasons. The first is the spectacular nature of the event that it commemorated. Had the Gunpowder Plot succeeded, it would have killed the majority of the English political nation of the time, including most of the royal family, aristocracy and leading gentry and many merchants, as well as demolishing Westminster Palace and much of the Abbey and surrounding houses. It was intended not just to overthrow the existing monarch and central and local government, but the Church of England, as established since the Reformation, and the Protestant faith dominant in England. In its place the plotters planned to restore the Roman Catholic religion and enthrone a puppet princess."
If Guy Fawkes day had a modern USA equivalent, it would be celebrated on September 11, and we would burn Osama bin Laden in effigy; the anti-Islamic overtones would be incredibly unfortunate, but become more obscure with time.
Um, wouldn't it be more like on May 2nd, the day (in 2011) that Osama Bin Laden was killed, rather than the 9/11/2001 date on which he enjoyed his rather large victory of sucker-punching the USA? If that plot had failed, and OBL had been captured/killed, then of course 9/11 would be a fully parallel celebration date.
It really does make one wonder about alternate history, if these plots had succeeded instead of failing, or failed instead of succeeding...
To see if the plot would've worked had the conspirators not been arrested, ITV built a replica of the House of Lords as it stood in 1605, placed barrels of gunpowder underneath it just as Fawkes would have done, and lit the fuse. The explosion was enormous, much bigger than I personally would've expected for black powder:
Bonfire night is still celebrated in one of the towns of the commonwealth I am from.
Guy Fawkes is dressed up days in advance and put on display.
The town then gathers and matches from end to end(about a 1.5 miles) and then goes to the cemetery to burn Guy Fawkes.
There is no mistaking that this is not a celebration of his death but his also success in rebellion.
At the risk of lowering the tone a notch on this subject...
For anyone who isn't familiar with the Gunpowder Plot, I can't resist posting this comedic (but factually accurate) video - the basic facts in just 3 minutes. This is from the brilliant BBC children's show Horrible Histories:
This is a long shot, but years ago a friend recited a poem in honor of Guy Fawkes day. All I remember of it was that it ended with "...and an inch of rope to hang him".
Does anyone recognise this fragment? I'd love to know the full version.
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Constant remembrance of the Gunpowder Plot provided a saving grace out of this dilemma. Protestants cared too much about the monarch's life to stop being suspicious about Catholicism, regardless of what he might tell them otherwise.
There were strong political reasons to make a lot out of the Gunpowder Plot as late as 1745, when a Catholic-led invasion army made it most of the way to London.
I thought everyone/ most UK people would know the real answer and after asking around it appears it's not clear cut.
Anecdotically (asking about 8 people from the UK) 5 people thought bonfire day was celebrated for Guy Fawlkes being captured. (ie killed for trying to burn down parliament) but a few (3) of the 5 people I asked where mostly guessing and was not really sure.
And the whole bonfire thing typically comes with the effigy being burned, so I find it hard to believe most people would be ignorant to its meaning.
I do remember as a child having a lot of sympathy for Fawkes and the others!
To me it is a commemoration rather than a celebration. Though I've always enjoyed the spectacle of it all since well before I knew any of the history.
It would surely be interesting to hear what could justify blowing up the parliament and murdering royal family in a child's mind.
As a kid my Catholic neighbour kids were not allowed to celebrate Guy Fawkes night
It’s actually not about Guy Fawkes at all - it’s that an attempt to destroy Parliament was defeated.
By which I mean that it would have died out a long time ago if it were not for the symbolism that Parliament was successfully protected.
"Guy Fawkes’ Night, the ‘Fifth of November’, has been popular and long-lived for two different reasons. The first is the spectacular nature of the event that it commemorated. Had the Gunpowder Plot succeeded, it would have killed the majority of the English political nation of the time, including most of the royal family, aristocracy and leading gentry and many merchants, as well as demolishing Westminster Palace and much of the Abbey and surrounding houses. It was intended not just to overthrow the existing monarch and central and local government, but the Church of England, as established since the Reformation, and the Protestant faith dominant in England. In its place the plotters planned to restore the Roman Catholic religion and enthrone a puppet princess."
It really does make one wonder about alternate history, if these plots had succeeded instead of failing, or failed instead of succeeding...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2G8k7zXhkI
Full documentary, hosted by Top Gear's Richard Hammond:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1b2w4GxBU0
Guy Fawkes night’s oddest traditions are due to a 1606 law (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15630581 - Nov 2017 (51 comments)
Guy Fawkes Day - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3200117 - Nov 2011 (4 comments)
There is no mistaking that this is not a celebration of his death but his also success in rebellion.
For anyone who isn't familiar with the Gunpowder Plot, I can't resist posting this comedic (but factually accurate) video - the basic facts in just 3 minutes. This is from the brilliant BBC children's show Horrible Histories:
Guy Fawkes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40UuVVsYtaM
(And if you like that, watch Protect thy privacy settings! also featuring Guy Fawkes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/watch/p01g2pt6)
Thought A: Celebrating religious persecution, cleansing, and atrocities is kinda lame.
Thought B: As far as plots go, just how many people are aware of the plot against Harold Wilson, I wonder?
Does anyone recognise this fragment? I'd love to know the full version.
- http://www.potw.org/archive/potw405.html
Doesn't have that exact line, though.