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Posted by u/Pseudomanifold 5 years ago
Ask HN: What type of personal NAS would you recommend?
It's 2021 and I am still using my home-built NAS (FreeNAS!), but I am increasingly interested in reducing energy consumption and maintenance time (mostly to improve compatibility with the family life, which leaves me less time to tinker with hardware).

So I humbly ask the hivemind:

- what are good solutions for storing personal backup on-site (other than a bunch of external hard drives)?

- What are some caveats that I should avoid?

- Can I trust the 'standard' companies (Synology, QNAP, Seagate, ...) to keep my data sufficiently safe?

Strong opinions, war stories, and all other suggestions are highly welcome!

andy800 · 5 years ago
This advice makes me extremely unpopular in NAS forums, but I strongly recommend you never use any other RAID option than RAID-1. When a disk goes bad, you have a single mirror disk that you can directly and immediately connect to your computer and recover from. With any of the NAS proprietary RAIDs, or something like RAID-5, you'll need to somehow hook up 3 or 5 disks to your computer to have any chance of a recovery.

The NAS gurus always say "RAID is not a backup", and it is true you should have additional backups. But no backup solution is perfect, none get updated every day, especially if you plan on keeping the backup off-site. For most users, the NAS is the backup. All I'm saying is that when a disk fails on your NAS, you'll be in panic mode and will want the easiest, most direct path to data recovery, and there is no RAID option in this scenario preferable than RAID-1.

deeblering4 · 5 years ago
RAID-1, RAID-10, RAID-5, RAID-6, etc. none offer protection against an accidental `rm -rf`.

With that in mind, the NAS is not the backup. Once a file is deleted, it's gone.

With regard to recovering from a RAID-5 dual disk failure, typically a USB 2x sata toaster is enough to connect the failed disk and the replacement disk to a system that can run a ddrescue to clone the failed disk. Often times disks that are ejected from a RAID array still have enough life left to copy data off very slowly (over several tries/passes)

For backup, a simple solution is connecting very large external USB3 disk(s) and running daily rsync hardlink backups. There are several scripts to do this, and it's quite low effort to maintain after its set up.

andy800 · 5 years ago
Yep, exactly, all the home users know what a sata toaster is and a ddrescue and a rsync hardlink script. No problem!
tommiegannert · 5 years ago
> With that in mind, the NAS is not the backup. Once a file is deleted, it's gone.

Snapshots can be used to catch that failure mode, so I don't think this is universally true. Whether there actually are NASes that would have snapshottable file systems out of the box... Is there?

joshAg · 5 years ago
For most people I agree with that. Heck, that's basically what I'm doing with my vdevs, since they're all mirrors.

But I think there's a semi-common exception: people who are using ZFS where they are maxing out the drives their enclosure can hold (or have a plan for that expansion). In that case, sure, fine, use raidz1 or raidz2 (with a hot or cold spare), because the rebuild commands are the same.

mindslight · 5 years ago
Mirroring is a good recommendation for simplicity, but you're half touching upon two different aspects.

1. Think about the contents of your bare disks, in terms of what is required to read them. Lots of RAID-1 will stick headers at the start of the disk (including Linux software raid by default, iirc). Using ZFS mirroring will necessitate the use of ZFS to read it, and so on. I prefer using only Free software raid for this reason, while opting to make myself reliant on Linux/ZFS.

2. Mirroring is much simpler for the sake of rebuilds/performance, and if you're looking for a simple hassle-free setup that's the way to go. I've got a 4+3 raidz3 for my main array, not even for capacity's sake but rather for redundancy's sake (it was going to be a 3+3 until I realized how ZFS deals out chunks). But I realize that's going to be a hassle if I do start getting correlated disk failures (I've also got true backups).

dmz73 · 5 years ago
What I use on my NAS is 2 data disks that are backed up to on-demand mounted disk which keeps versioned backups of changed files. For my use case this gives me a copy of each file that I care about and in case of malware encryption, corruption or deletion of the file, I have old version available. This will not protect from a fire, theft or from loss of anything that was modified since the last backup but I feel this works well for all the scenarios I care about. Irreplaceable photos can always be uploaded to Google or similar for additional layer of security.
amelius · 5 years ago
With RAID-5 your system still functions when a drive breaks. With RAID-6, two drives can fail without causing problems.
matheusmoreira · 5 years ago
But will the array survive a rebuild? The calculators I've used gave me significant probability of uncorrectable read errors during this process. It only got worse as capacity increased.
andy800 · 5 years ago
RAID-1 always survives a single drive failure too, and it can also survive 2 (or more) disks failing, if they aren't two mirrors of each other (not that I would wait to allow that to happen). But what about when the NAS itself fails (and they almost all do, just read the forums)?

Deleted Comment

marcosdumay · 5 years ago
> you'll need to somehow hook up 3 or 5 disks to your computer to have any chance of a recovery

If you are using only 2 disks, the only reasonable options are 0 or 1. So, you are saying that 0 is too unreliable, what I think nobody will disagree.

But when you have enough disks, RAID 6 is a no-brainier.

nuker · 5 years ago
> All I'm saying is that when a disk fails on your NAS, you'll be in panic mode …

I have 3 + 2 disks Truenas setup, so when a disk fails, i’m still another failure away from single copy of data state. No panic, just relaxed shopping for replacement drive.

jonwest · 5 years ago
I think the authors point was that if the NAS itself fails, with RAID1 you can hook a drive up to a computer and get the data. RAID5 hardware RAID will generally require the same controller for recovery, making the operation more difficult.

ZFS or MDADM don’t have the same limitation, but there are other caveats there.

cpach · 5 years ago
Seems like very reasonable advice to me.
lightlyused · 5 years ago
I backup to raid 1 and use raid 6 for performance.
rkuykendall-com · 5 years ago
I highly recommend Synology. QNAP and FreeNAS seem really great in a lot of ways, but Synology is the solution for people who want something solid that takes up as little of their time as possible. Avoid Drobo and Seagate.

I would make your first / boot drive a SSD, and put WD Reds in the rest, 2 drive redundancy if you want to be super safe.

In addition, I recommend using the built-in cloud backup software to backup high-value data to Blackblaze B2.

Happy to answer any other questions.

azinman2 · 5 years ago
I recently was comparing. Both QNAP and Synology have demo web UIs to try. That was enough for me to stop considering QNAP. It was almost like a joke of the worst most annoying UX possible with all kinds of alerts popping up and everything inconsistent and terrible.
3np · 5 years ago
What makes you recommend WD Red?

Given the history of the WD Red series they should be avoided by anyone who cares about data integrity in a NAS.

After the SMR scandal, WD did a rebrand and now any drive with any form of promise for NAS use are called WD Red Plus.

I'd go with Toshiba or Seagate Ironwolf.

rkuykendall-com · 5 years ago
Honestly, exhaustion makes me recommend them. I am exhausted trying to find the best drives. They are hard to find, constantly discontinued, or internals replaced without notification. WD Reds are freely available and cheap. I just switched from single to double redundancy to account for trusting them less.
sliken · 5 years ago
Not a fan of the WD reds, they have 10x the error rate (according to their spec) of the normal enterprise drives. I believe they takes it from one bit error per 120TB read to one bit error per 12TB. Not something I want to worry about during a RAID rebuild.
Topolomancer · 5 years ago
Thanks, that's helpful! What would you recommend for actually running the backup? Can I mount a Synology NAS over SSH or something? I'd ideally just run my normal backup scripts without thinking too deeply about the end point.
rograndom · 5 years ago
SSH, NFS, SMB, rsync, pretty much anything. It also has built in applications to backup to another synology or S3/glacier.
squarefoot · 5 years ago
Avoid plain WD Reds (SMR), for storage use only WD Red Plus (CMR) or WD Red Pro (CMR).
Ziggy_Zaggy · 5 years ago
I 2nd the Synology recommendation.

A solid product with zero regrets (thus far).

joshAg · 5 years ago
i'd say wd red pluses, not just wd reds.
altano · 5 years ago
Seagate Ironwolf is cmr on the lower end line making it cheaper than the analogous WD Red Plus line. Given the price and that Seagate hasn’t recently fucked consumers I would recommend those drives instead.
0xabe · 5 years ago
Another good option according to published Backblaze data[0] is HGST.

[0] https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html

mikestew · 5 years ago
Others have already sung the praises of Synology boxes, so I won't repeat (and do a worse job of it) what has already been said. But I will say this, the DS410 in the garage is still plugging away after all these years. How many years? The last two digits of Synology model numbers represent the year they were made. Eleven years of hourly Mac backups, document and picture storage, and I paid the eye-watering sum for the camera storage license, so cameras are hitting disks all day, too. Without looking, there are four of what I believe to be WD Greens, and I've had just the one die. Still have a backup in the closet that I've never used. (Granted, drive longevity probably has little to do with the NAS brand.)

Yeah, it's slow, long in the tooth, and maybe I should replace it this year. But I'll replace it with another Synology.

raffraffraff · 5 years ago
I have a very similar story with a Netgear ReadyNAS nv+ that has been running for about 10 years. I put 4x 2TB disks into it on RAID 5, and have a spare sitting in a box in case I get a failure. Daily offsite backup. Not a single issue over the years. I have ssh, and it's just Debian under the hood, so I've added a bunch of extra stuff to it.

I have no idea what I'd use nowadays. As someone pointed out, if the box itself dies, I'm screwed. I think it uses mdadm under the hood, but that's a guess. Maybe I'd just buy a mini ITX barebones that holds 4 drives, boot off a usb stick that runs FreeNAS and configure the disks in a simple 2x2 mirror.

theshrike79 · 5 years ago
I used to have a QNAP NAS and it was really underwhelming.

Upgraded it to a Synology 918+ and haven't regretted it even once. Added an SSD for read caching, upgraded memory to 12GB a year ago. The SSD cache has a hit rate of 88%, reducing the need to hit the spinning drives as often.

The Synology Hybrid Raid (SHR) was one of the main reasons I got a Synology NAS, I started with a random assortment of drives of different sizes and it just made a volume with those. Every time I run out of space, I upgrade the smallest one and tell the NAS to expand the volume. It just works.

Running a dozen or so Docker containers on it + native Plex package. It can even transcode video with hardware.

The only way I can realistically upgrade from that setup is to build an actual PC with Unraid or something similar and that'll be a noisy power hog unless I spend mucho $$ on it.

3np · 5 years ago
It would help a lot to reduce the scope by knowing some requirements you may have in terms of storage size/number of disks/specs/performance/features/integrations/etc.

Without knowing anything else, for a small and power-efficient setup I can recommend the Odroid HC4 with Armbian (manually upgraded to Bullseye; Bullseye builds are currently broken but building Buster and then upgrading works fine) and a ZFS mirror of whatever SATA drives you choose. I use one as a backup sink.

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc4/

As for drives, I've been committing myself for Toshiba recently. They have a good reputation for reliability/durability and reasonable cost-performance.

If you're going for SSDs, that market segment is in a bit of constant flux.

For something beefier and way more extendable I've been writing about my experiences with ASROCK RACK's X570 boards here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28302303

Though, from what I understand you may get lower idle power consumption from the right Intel CPU/chipset combo than AMD Ryzens as of now. This is just something I gathered from others' remarks and not something I researched or benchmarked properly myself so take that with a grain of salt.

I never used a prebuilt QNAP/Synology but I'm curious what it is that takes time for you these days that you hope to cut down on? A DIY can be pretty much as fire-and-forget once you have it set up and on the flip side you still have plenty of room for tinkering with containers and whatnot on Synology et al... Like, is there ongoing maintenance you have to do on your FreeNAS box just to keep things in place or is it more a personal tendency to keep changing things that makes it never ending?

Topolomancer · 5 years ago
Thanks, that's really helpful! I have relatively mild specs in mind---was thinking of probably having 2 x 1 TB RAID 1 or something.

The main reservation I had for going DIY is that there's a lot of initial building involved (getting hardware that works well together etc.) whereas Synology et al. is more like 'plug and play.' However, I revised that opinion whilst reading that thread, primarily because I learned about NUCs and other such alternatives. I know myself very well, though, and I know that if there's a fully-fledged OS, I am bound to change stuff, try out new things, etc., when in reality all I should be doing is making backups :D

squarefoot · 5 years ago
I've built my home NAS years ago using a Ultron RPS19-G3380 case and a Atom D410 mainboard, system is embedded XigmaNAS (formerly NAS4Free), and I wouldn't change it for any ready made solutions. It boots from a USB key direclty inserted on the mainboard and works flawlessly since day one. Max uptime is over 2 years, and I had to turn it off for scheduled maintenance. Other than disk and system upgrades, it doesn't need much attention from the user; mine is on a 2.5 meters high shelf and had to move it down once in years to upgrade to XigmaNAS and bigger disks. Admittedly I didn't test it for power consumption which I believe would be slightly worse than most similarly specced ARM boards, but sadly ARM support is still a work in progress so I have to stick to x86.

> What are some caveats that I should avoid?

Be very careful about SATA connectors: they're among the worst piece of junk ever designed and have an extremely low guaranteed life (literally dozens of operations, not thousands), therefore, don't think of drive bays and especially desktop "toasters" as something in which drives can be inserted and pulled every day; that would be a solution for defective contacts and data loss. Been there, done that. Twice.

> Can I trust the 'standard' companies (Synology, QNAP, Seagate, ...) to keep my data sufficiently safe?

I guess so, although sometimes there are stories about newly discovered vulnerabilities. It's also possible malicious hackers would rather direct their attack on well known products than home built systems, but that doesn't mean nobody is attempting to target our NASes. I don't have any experience with those brands, however.

As for the rest, I was also following the Helios64 project which seemed really intriguing, albeit it meant moving from *BSD to Linux (actually I am a Linux user, although I like more BSD solutions for NAS servers and firewalling). Unfortunately the project died. It's FOSS, though, hardware and software so hopefully someone will take over development and production. https://kobol.io/

mindslight · 5 years ago
What are you currently spending so much maintenance time on? My experience with Debian+ZFS is that once you spend some time setting it up, it just works. I would think FreeNAS would be similar, assuming you pick a straightforward setup. If you want to downsize, look into 2 or 3 disk mirror setups and low power motherboards.

As for trust, you can trust anybody for anything. Should you is a different question. I rest easy knowing there will never be an article about a product I critically rely on deciding to sell me out. And needing to navigate least-worst commercial options seems like a much larger maintenance burden.

traceroute66 · 5 years ago
As always with tech its : Speed. Quality. Price. Pick Two.

You have carefully omitted your budget. Your budget will likely ultimately determine your options.

Otherwise I'll tell you to get a 10Gb switch and build a five node CEPH cluster. :-)

3np · 5 years ago
> build a five node CEPH cluster. :-)

OP was looking to spend less time, not more :P

Topolomancer · 5 years ago
Price is really not a problem. I have learned the hard way that cheap stuff breaks often :)
antongribok · 5 years ago
After many years thinking about it and procrastinating, I finally built a Ceph cluster with 4x Raspberry Pis (8GB RAM, 4 or 5 TB external portable drive for each Pi).

The setup per node is super simple, Ubuntu 20.04, install Docker, and then one command to add the new node to the cluster, and one more command to add a disk.

(Ceph version 16 switched to cephadm for deploying and managing a cluster and it's a lot easier now than with previous versions.)

With just 4 nodes I'm already saturating a 1Gb connection on my client (Ryzen desktop).

Perhaps the most surprising thing for me was how stable and forgiving a native CephFS client is on my Linux laptop. After waking up from sleep, it takes about a second to reconnect.

This weekend I'm planning on expanding to 7 nodes. With 7 nodes total power usage should be ~31 watts (not counting network switch), which is less than my current 6 disk ZFS RAIDZ2 setup in my desktop.