It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame.
Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital.
The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet.
Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine.
Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places.
- They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume)
- They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable)
- they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization)
- they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work
- they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine)
All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears.
And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated.
A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
> A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.
All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly.
Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public).
As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters?
The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.
If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
> The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims.
At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit?
> The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views.
Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
Even the old hat anarchists of NZ are all for lockdowns and vacation.
That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
finishing it with the anecdote of "so I tried my new fangled plan of convincing a person, and then they still wern't convinced" somewhat nullifies the author's entire point
Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.
It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.
Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
We also have to stop shaming information, and the people who want to discuss it.
In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".
You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.
If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.
That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
If they are dead you are not talking to them. You are talking with the people that did the same as them, and are still alive (and with a bit of luck, that didn't got the disease yet).
And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.
Readit News
Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital.
The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet.
Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine.
Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places.
- They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume)
- They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable)
- they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization)
- they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work
- they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine)
All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears.
And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated.
A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.
All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly.
Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public).
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-imp...
I’m not saying you should buy their arguments.
You need to give people an “out”. If folks approach it as proving that the unvaccinated are “wrong”, then it just makes them dig in their heels.
But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view.
They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.
If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit?
> The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views.
Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
Deleted Comment
Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.
It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.
Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...
Mocking their deaths won't convince them to become reasonable, but you can't blame people for feeling schadenfreude.
In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".
You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.
If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.
That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
It would be nice if people could talk about this situation in measured calm ways and actually treat reasonable statements as such
And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.