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mbanzi · 5 years ago
Go easy on Raspberry Pi. Trademarks allow a legitimate company to protect their customers from scammers and other kind dodgy behaviour. If you have a popular brand like theirs you have to use external services that are setup to help you protect the brand and, guess what, mistakes happen. A number of fan websites can end up being targeted because they might be a bit too "naughty" in the way they use the brand for SEO. RPi already apologised so it's all good :) To the ones who are asking for somebody to be fired, please calm down.. What would happen if you got fired for any honest mistake you did? For example, We (Arduino) spend an insane amount of time and energy protecting our brand (It's the only thing that it's not open source) and the amount of people who scam people by posing as us or sel counterfeit products it's just staggering.
blantonl · 5 years ago
This is spot on. I've noticed over the past 5 years a disturbing trend of "entitlement" in our startup and tech ecosystem - to everything from trademarks, to data access, to APIs, and most especially entitlement around building products and services on the back of those people's work. While this case with RPi wasn't one of those nefarious examples, the response of the community to RPi is.

The Raspberry Pi ecosystem is literally one of enabling creators, and when they went to mistakenly enforce their trademark, the community literally fell all over themselves to bite the hand that feeds them.

If you run a successful tech business, you can reasonability except hundreds of people to try to rip off your content, steal your API, demand access to your APIs, reappropriate your logos and designs, and outright steal and resell your content. The mobile app development market is notoriously subject to this trend.

I think it would be wise for those in this community to be aware that companies are daily trying to defend themselves against people that generally don't want to develop their own businesses, but ride on the coat-tails of others. The danger is a race to the bottom of dilution for the company brand and outright fraud for customers.

If Raspberry Pi or any other company does something like this, take a moment to maybe understand why they did it, and how something might have gone wrong before vilifying a company that literally contributes TONs of work to the creator community. There are many times when I wonder how participants here actually run or have built a company - this comment isn't to gatekeep, but to point out that it makes no sense for a creator community to act like this.

3np · 5 years ago
I think it's dishonest to call this "entitlement". From my perspective it's the inverse.

Quite a lot of us are, and have been for years, disagreeing with the concepts of trademark, patents, and legally enshrined IP.

This is nothing new. If anything the reason you see it increasing might be that over the years there have been more and more "outsiders" (not traditional US businessmen or entrepreneurs) in the startup scene than before.

Regardless of what you think of the above, as many others have pointed out, the particular way they played this (inaction for years, and then suddenly "do all of these huge changes within two weeks or we'll sue you out of business") is not easy to interpret charitably on them.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Either way, good on them for recognizing the mistake and making amends. Might not have happened without all the backlash.

detaro · 5 years ago
Loudly disagreeing online is not much in the way of "biting the hand that feeds them" (i.e. the parent mentions calling for people to get fired, but I haven't seen much of that here, and is something I'd strongly disagree with), and to the contrary often seems to be the primary method of getting companies to fix this kind of thing. They'll fix it, it'll blow over and I doubt it'll do the Raspberry Pi Foundation much harm. Calling out bad behavior isn't entitlement.
noneeeed · 5 years ago
Also, am I right that if you don't proactively enforce your trademark by taking action against others that you can potentially lose the right to it?
jjk166 · 5 years ago
That's correct.

> Trademark owners have a duty to police their mark. This applies to all types of marks – brand names, slogans, color, product shapes, or even a smell. The cost of dropping the ball on this duty can range from a bar on future enforcement of your rights against a particular company to a complete loss of all trademark rights. As a practical business reality, the value of marks that are not policed and their associated goodwill are always in danger.

[0] https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2251/2013-0...

jackweirdy · 5 years ago
terramex · 5 years ago
The response was posted as an image containing text, so here it is in text form for screen readers or text mode only browsers.

STATEMENT FROM PHILIP COLLIGAN ON RASPBERRY PI TRADEMARKS

Yesterday we sent a letter to a member of the Raspberry Pi community as part of our efforts to protect the Raspberry Pi trademark that was inconsistent with our values as a community organisation. We got it wrong and we have apologised to the valued community member who got the letter. We are undertaking a review of how we protect our trademark to make sure that this doesn’t happen again.

The letter was sent automatically to a small number of individuals responsible for social media accounts and websites that were identified by external legal advisers as possibly infringing our trademarks. It should never have been sent.

It is important that we take action to protect the Raspberry Pi trademarks, not least to protect the public from bad actors who deliberately misuse our brands to sell poor quality, rip off products.

We want to do that in a way that doesn’t undermine the use of the Raspberry Pi brands and trademarks by members of the fantastic Raspberry Pi community who share our educational mission and who do so much to bring it to life everyday.

If you have a question or concern about your use of the Raspberry Pi brand or trademarks, please get in touch with us at trademarks@raspberrypi.org.

mlang23 · 5 years ago
Thanks for textifying this. I am a screen reader user, so your effort is very much appreciated.
sebazzz · 5 years ago
> The letter was sent automatically to a small number of individuals responsible for social media accounts and websites that were identified by external legal advisers as possibly infringing our trademarks.

Does that happen often, automatic legal notices?

jventura · 5 years ago
Typical..

  while (1) { 
    company_does_something_stupid();
    gets_caught();
    apologize();
    makes_promises();
    if (bankrupt)
        break;
  }

kenniskrag · 5 years ago
> The letter was sent automatically

translates to: not really our fault but...

mark_mart · 5 years ago
Also:

bankrupt = !is_promises_kept() || is_shitty_product();

crististm · 5 years ago
Yes. 'Automatically' and 'small number' doesn't look like they fit well together in the same sentence.
gaius_baltar · 5 years ago

    > The letter was sent automatically
    (...)
    > that were identified by external legal advisers
It's not even the typical "it was automatic" excuse... the only automation here seems to be just a target list, they just used the word "automatic" to leverage their PR.

Deleted Comment

gchadwick · 5 years ago
For reference the trademark rules referred to in the letter: https://www.raspberrypi.org/trademark-rules/ and the same page from 1st April 2012: https://web.archive.org/web/20120401195820/https://www.raspb...

The basic rule that you may not use 'Raspberry Pi' as part of your company name or in your domain name has been there since 1st April 2012 (and indeed potentially earlier, that was the earliest page in the wayback machine archive) though interestingly the 'raspberrypi-spy.co.uk' domain was registered a few days before 1st April 2012 on the 11th March 2012. I wonder if those trademark rules were visible at the time?

Doesn't really matter from a legal standpoint though in terms of how you view RPi's conduct here I think it'd be very different if the trademark rules page popped up yesterday vs available to read when the creator of raspberrypi-spy.co.uk started the website.

Though it's not a good look to happily leave them to it for so long before enforcing anything. I wonder if there was an initial informal approach that hasn't been tweeted about or if this letter was the first they heard of it?

Edit: Minor typo fixes and tweaks to text.

MattGaiser · 5 years ago
Can you define a trademark so broadly? Are all the various iphone sites with "iphone" in the domain violating the rules?
kube-system · 5 years ago
They can say whatever they want, but the law defines trademarks, not individual companies.

Trademarks are the exclusive right to use an identifying mark pertaining to a particular trade. (Which is why your grocery story has no issues advertising apples for sale in their produce department)

FWIW, the Raspberry Pi Foundation appears to have rights to this mark as it pertains to various types of publications. ('publications' is mentioned 5 times in the US trademark registration)

3np · 5 years ago
I don't see why Apple wouldn't be able to compel TLD owners to hand over those domains.
varbhat · 5 years ago
I think that Raspberry Pi Foundation is correct here. I think that this is just a notice to not use Raspberry Pi in the site and transfer the domain to Raspberry Pi foundation (this is questionable).

Reason why i am saying this is that i saw this article with the title

"Introducing the Raspberry Pi 3 B+ Single Board Computer"

https://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/2018/03/introducing-raspbe...

They could have written "Review of" instead of "Introducing" .

At the end, I think that Raspberry Pi must also clarify properly the terms of usage of their assets in their website. For media usage,it is better to permit users to use some assets.

imtringued · 5 years ago
It got it right except the last paragraph. It basically told him to shut the entire site down. A raspberry pi site that isn't allowed to have "Raspberry Pi content" might as well not exist.

Deleted Comment

ungruntled · 5 years ago
I'm not sure what the right reaction should be from the Foundation, but as as someone who has only seen the official website a couple of times, I wouldn't have noticed that the community website wasn't an official one.
turbinerneiter · 5 years ago
They could and should provide a community trademark that people can use. Like the logo with a [Community] badge across it.

Imagine how different this letter would look like.

"Here is the community logo you can use and here is the license that allows you to use it. Only rule is: don't try to act like you are us. Thanks for increasing the value of the product by providing content."

NetBeck · 5 years ago
Here is an example of Arduino's community logo:

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Trademark/CommunityLogo

code_scrapping · 5 years ago
That's a wonderful way of supporting people while also taking care of brand, styling recommendations etc. Kudos to Arduino!

Maybe RPi just hired some <profanity-word> lawyers that need to justify their salaries by doing same-old, before somebody in the top level wakes up and goes "maybe that's not the best way of doing things"?

pabs3 · 5 years ago
Debian's trademark license is fairly sensible too:

https://www.debian.org/trademark

CM30 · 5 years ago
I wonder if Raspberry Pi Spy could potentially win this if it went to court? I know years ago, a Legend of Zelda fan site won against Nintendo of America on similar grounds, as mentioned here:

https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Community:Nintendo_of_America_v....

https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d200...

The site mentioned here is also very clear it's a fan site and not associated with the Raspberry Pi Foundation too...

kube-system · 5 years ago
Being a "fan site" is not a general defense to trademark infringement. What is relevant is whether the mark was infringed on as it pertains to the goods and services that the mark was registered for.
andybak · 5 years ago
All other considerations aside, why not reach out in a friendly way before unleashing the lawyers? Surely this holds true for anyone interested in building a community.
undecisive · 5 years ago
Indeed. I'm not a lawyer, but clearly there are at least two routes to defending your trademark: ask people to "license" the trademark, or go to court over it. A site that clearly helps build up a brand should be a no-brainer for a free (or if the law does not allow, a £1) trademark agreement that ensures common sense things like "the site should clearly state it's unaffiliated" (which it does) or "the raspberry pi foundation should get first consideration if the site is ever sold".

I do hope Eben Upton weighs in on this, because whoever signed this off, it's a bad decision all round. Blaming trademark law is just a dishonest get-out-of-jail-free that big corporations use to justify belligerent bad-faith dealing. I hope the Raspberry Pi Foundation can show that it's different. This is not a good start.

monokh · 5 years ago
Scale probably. Trademark protection is too costly to conduct on an individual basis. The easiest solution is to fire and forget.

They have also replied indicating something to this effect. https://twitter.com/Raspberry_Pi/status/1318494942478635009

"This letter was automatically sent to"

pacificmint · 5 years ago
Isn’t that what they did with the letter posted in the tweet?

I suppose they could’ve done it with a little less ‘ultimatum’, but it looks like they _did_ reach out before unleashing anything else.

andybak · 5 years ago
Well the tone was well off - and as another reply points out they seem to have realised this and have tweeted a firm apology.

https://twitter.com/Raspberry_Pi/status/1318494942478635009

kube-system · 5 years ago
> why not reach out in a friendly way before unleashing the lawyers?

This is a letter from the foundation. I don't see any lawyers listed anywhere, and no indication that they have taken legal action.

627467 · 5 years ago
Because it's cheaper to have legal interns/contractors do this kind of work who are paid for enforcement not for PR. And to know how to handle these situations with tact and decency cost a lot more money. Also: trademark law is an opening for DDOS/spam attack: anyone can easily infringe, anyone can easily send threatening legal letter and now with social media, anyone can easily get outrage points up by posting legal letters online.
ThePhysicist · 5 years ago
I thought by now companies should've learned to have the legal departments or external lawyers consult the marketing/PR folks (or use their own good judgement) before sending out such stuff.

Plenty of cases here in Germany as well that created quite some backlash. I still remember e.g. the case of "Held Der Steine", a fantastic guy who's the most popular Lego Youtuber in Germany, where Lego thought it would be a great idea to send him a "Cease and Desist" letter because part of his logo vaguely resembled a Lego brick. He wasn't amused and with his enormous reach (millions of people watch his videos) he made sure a lot of people learned about this greedy behavior of the Lego company.