Over the years I've written here several times about my efforts to explain and overcome mysterious chronic health impairments including fatigue/lethargy and tension/pain.
In recent times, my research and experimentation has led me to explanations and treatments that focus on the fascia, and whilst I've not yet achieved full recovery (a recovery time of several years is par for the course with these kinds of issues), this approach does seem to be helping to improve my conditions.
The approaches I've been undertaking include yoga/pilates-type stretching exercises and specific types of massage that seek to break up fascia "adhesions" [1].
I'm being careful not to make any specific claims of diagnoses or remedies, as I'm fully aware from my own experience (and background as a scientifically-minded person) that this this whole topic is nascent in terms of solid scientific evidence, and rife with pseudoscience.
But it does seem clear to me that there is "something there", and that more research into this topic could likely lead to explanations and remedies for conditions like "chronic pain" and "chronic fatigue", which many people currently endure for years or for life without understanding or relief.
[1] It's not the only work I've been doing; as I've written about here before, diet, cardio exercise and emotional work have all been part of my regimen for some years, but since introducing the practices that focus on fascia, my condition has improved faster and in different ways.
Note: tight fascia with trigger points inside _cannot_ be released by stretching alone. Source: personal focus of finding why the hell my posture was crooked after falling off bike; after 3 years of weekly massages my therapist and me finally found a huge trigger point in a thigh. It took one-two weeks to release fully, and then my posture magically straightened.
People swear by trigger points , and as it is a relatively recent discovery, not every massage therapist knows about them.
Also make sure to get a good therapist. I had somebody do trigger point therapy with me for a few months and had zero improvements while the sessions were very painful every time.
I’m in the same boat as you. My PT has helped a lot. I discovered many of the treatments were in the book The Perrin Technique. The symptoms in the book described me exactly.
I gave her a copy to read and it has helped greatly. My PT told another one of her patients with similar symptoms who has gone from mostly bed/housebound to regular outings.
Even as much as a disalignment of a degree forward or backward rotation in the pelvis, caused by sitting for a long time and thereby shortening the back muscle, or hunching forward, can cause stress on other systems in the body.
Here is a little fun exercise to show the effect of fascia : bend over, straight legs and see how far your hands go, just measuring how close you get to your feet (they don’t have to touch, don’t push yourself, just see where you end up) Now take a tennisbal or small round object and stand or move with one foot on it for a while, and roll a bit especially on the arch of the foot, like a massage.
Now do the exercise again, bending over with your hands towards your feet and see what happens.
For that experiment to be valid you'd probably want to do a control where you try the stretch, then wait doing nothing for the same amount of time that you would roll your feet and try again and another where you just rotate your ankle in the same way you would if you had a tennis ball under it. Taking your baseline reading one day and trying the tennis ball plus stretch the next day or week would be good too.
This wouldn't really convince me because I find any additional stretching helps with my reach and I'm more likely to chalk it up to a warm up effect or maybe some other effect on the the tendons or muscles. I don't see any particular reason to attribute it to fascia release.
> Even as much as a disalignment of a degree forward or backward rotation in the pelvis, caused by sitting for a long time and thereby shortening the back muscle...
This doesn’t pass the sniff test. Your pelvis tilts by more than a degree just from slightly tightening your glutes.
Also, how does sitting shorten the back muscles? Sitting puts the back in a mild state of flexion.
This is how they sell those magnet bracelets that "align your chakras" or whatever. The reason you can reach farther the second time is that you stretched.
I notice how carefully you had to tread here to not actually talk about or discuss, brainstorm or theorize, what's going on - not sharing any specifics of your experience except that there is "something there."
And I understand why, it's because enough of a majority of people on HN aren't very open minded nor supportive of open discussing theory or anything unproven, so like where I briefly shared my thoughts here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961032 - it quickly got -3 points, and deemed unacceptable for anyone else to chime in if they have similar thoughts or theories or experiences to share to add to a body of knowledge, even if mostly anecdotal.
Edit: Downvoted for sharing my observations of people's behaviour on HN? Brilliant.
I've been discussing these topics on HN for a long time. I've learned it's better to meet people where they're at than to demand people immediately leap to my place of understanding.
I think things like the work with fascia suffer from people feeling the need to explain something with scientific terms. For a few years I was involved in the yoga community and noticed a lot of practices where something that was clearly beneficial to a lot of people got explained with clearly very questionable science terms.
I am not sure why that is. Will you get ignored when you demonstrate something that works but say “I have no idea why or how it works” ?
This is a good observation. I think that “it works but we don’t know why” is appealing to a small slice of well-educated people who are comfortable with complexity and the limits of knowledge, but otherwise off-putting.
For most people I think that “it works but we don’t know why,” translates to “it doesn’t really work.” Thus a fake explanation adds credibility and believability. And if it does work, then people feel reassured and confident in the fake explanation.
> I think that “it works but we don’t know why” is appealing to a small slice of well-educated people who are comfortable with complexity and the limits of knowledge, but otherwise off-putting.
Really? So a limited number of intellectual elite are the only people capable of accepting faith-based arguments?
Is this specific
to medicine? In physics it’s perfectly ok to say “ here is an observation which can’t be explained with our current knowledge “. See dark matter and dark energy.
The story of Ignaz Semmelweis seems to indicate that medicine is different from physics in that aspect.
Perhaps there's a relationship between the perceived need for a scientific sounding explanation and compatibility with traditional medicine for a particular idea.
It's ironic that virtually all drugs are discovered via effects and not designed via a known mechanism.
Once a novel compound is discovered, and the mechanism characterized, tweaking it to get better binding affinity for the affected binding site, or reduced affinity to a side-effect-producing site, is tractable and is practiced in industry and research.
Without waxing too poetic about it, its like .. are you deliberately not hitting the nail on the head? ;)
> Perhaps there's a relationship between the perceived need for a scientific sounding explanation and compatibility with traditional medicine for a particular idea.
I think there is a chemical reward system in play in order to even want to seek information, of any quality. Even in its most utterly click-baity, priori, emotionally contrived or pseudo-scientific form...(needing something "science.")
It isn't as deep of a reward system as the one engaged where you are totally in awe of natures order and discover the capacity to produce information and thus direct some control over it through planning...(demonstrable compatibility.)(its too bad the click-bait people aren't selling better dope.)
That biology produces complex molecules which are even 'compatible between organisms in plant and animal is pretty awe inspiring. And, that the control of human intention has any control over nature, electrochemically or otherwise, likewise so.
Whenever anything "smells" like pop pseudoscience, I think we should apply scientific resources to build an evidence base. As opposed to getting scared.
I've been doing empirical research on "the vibe" for that reason. It is commonly enough discussed in popular culture and is clearly valuable. Yet, there is almost nothing scholarly written about it. To me, as a scientist, that says "low hanging fruit." Any association with the esoteric will create a kind of forcefield around it, so many fewer scientists will have studied it. But, in my opinion, the topics are avoided for the wrong reasons.
If you're in the SF Bay Area and want to "do science" to Reiki "energy" I'm available. I don't know what the phenomenon is but it engenders pretty dramatic physiological changes in a way that should be easy to measure somehow.
I’d argue that the properties of most / all tissues undergo changes when subject to stress.
Stress ramps up blood pressure, causes changes in the properties of blood directly, increases inflammation, down regulates the immune system and healing in general, increases muscle tension generally, constricts blood vessels, causes changes in hormones and cell signalling molecules in general.
"He suggests that stiff fascia decreases lymphatic fluid flow and can contribute to swelling in the limbs."
The first thing I thought that sounded like was ancient Chinese medicine and the Meridian system. [1]
Next I thought of the reflexology diagrams of areas of the bottom of the foot being connected to different parts of the body. The foot is a body part particularly rich in fascia.
You know what else can contribute to swelling in the limbs? Heart failure. Massages might help with circulation a little, but no amount of massaging is going to correct a serious cardiovascular problem.
I believe that connective tissues do have real function and massages could have some mild health benefits. But I don't like this article because it doesn't sound like science. And there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments.
> I don't like this article because it doesn't sound like science
The article is specifically about the fact that the scientific community has little knowledge or consensus about this topic, but that hypotheses are being formulated and research undertaken.
This is the epitome of how science progresses in as-yet unexplored fields.
> there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments
Perhaps you should provide evidence that measures up to your own standards: what data is there to demonstrate that significant numbers of people have died of cardiovascular illness because they tried to treat serious limb swelling with just massage?
On the flipside, here's some relevant data:
– "Drug overdose deaths involving prescription opioids rose from 3,442 in 1999 to 17,029 in 2017" [1]
– "Orthopedic pain (34.8%) was the primary reason for an opioid prescription, followed by [...], back pain (14.0%), and headache (12.9%)" [2]
If it turns out that fascia-related issues are frequently a factor in these kinds of chronic pain conditions, which currently seems at least somewhat plausible, it may well turn out to be a scandal that this topic has not yet been more heavily researched, given that many people outside the pharmaceutical sector of the health industry have been talking about it for years or even decades.
While I have no experience with, or would endorse it, the practice of ‘rolfing’ should be mentioned in this context. It specifically targets fascias with manipulations.
> My reader will not wonder, that, after having ascertained the superior goodness of dephlogisticated air by mice living in it, and the other tests above mentioned, I should have the curiosity to taste it myself.
Nope.
It’s important to remember that unbelievable beliefs associated with observations do not implicitly negate the observations, especially when it comes to understudied areas of the human body.
What we know about the vagus nerve today seemed insane and nonsensical fifty years ago, but historical writings for hundreds of years are filled with tales of drinking magic elixirs that change people’s mind and body. Magic? Probably not. Valid? Possibly so.
Further study is required, if only to separate the magic from the biology.
Readit News
In recent times, my research and experimentation has led me to explanations and treatments that focus on the fascia, and whilst I've not yet achieved full recovery (a recovery time of several years is par for the course with these kinds of issues), this approach does seem to be helping to improve my conditions.
The approaches I've been undertaking include yoga/pilates-type stretching exercises and specific types of massage that seek to break up fascia "adhesions" [1].
I'm being careful not to make any specific claims of diagnoses or remedies, as I'm fully aware from my own experience (and background as a scientifically-minded person) that this this whole topic is nascent in terms of solid scientific evidence, and rife with pseudoscience.
But it does seem clear to me that there is "something there", and that more research into this topic could likely lead to explanations and remedies for conditions like "chronic pain" and "chronic fatigue", which many people currently endure for years or for life without understanding or relief.
[1] It's not the only work I've been doing; as I've written about here before, diet, cardio exercise and emotional work have all been part of my regimen for some years, but since introducing the practices that focus on fascia, my condition has improved faster and in different ways.
People swear by trigger points , and as it is a relatively recent discovery, not every massage therapist knows about them.
I gave her a copy to read and it has helped greatly. My PT told another one of her patients with similar symptoms who has gone from mostly bed/housebound to regular outings.
Here is a little fun exercise to show the effect of fascia : bend over, straight legs and see how far your hands go, just measuring how close you get to your feet (they don’t have to touch, don’t push yourself, just see where you end up) Now take a tennisbal or small round object and stand or move with one foot on it for a while, and roll a bit especially on the arch of the foot, like a massage. Now do the exercise again, bending over with your hands towards your feet and see what happens.
This wouldn't really convince me because I find any additional stretching helps with my reach and I'm more likely to chalk it up to a warm up effect or maybe some other effect on the the tendons or muscles. I don't see any particular reason to attribute it to fascia release.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i69PC4PJdAQ
This doesn’t pass the sniff test. Your pelvis tilts by more than a degree just from slightly tightening your glutes.
Also, how does sitting shorten the back muscles? Sitting puts the back in a mild state of flexion.
Put another way, [citation needed]
And I understand why, it's because enough of a majority of people on HN aren't very open minded nor supportive of open discussing theory or anything unproven, so like where I briefly shared my thoughts here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961032 - it quickly got -3 points, and deemed unacceptable for anyone else to chime in if they have similar thoughts or theories or experiences to share to add to a body of knowledge, even if mostly anecdotal.
Edit: Downvoted for sharing my observations of people's behaviour on HN? Brilliant.
Deleted Comment
I am not sure why that is. Will you get ignored when you demonstrate something that works but say “I have no idea why or how it works” ?
For most people I think that “it works but we don’t know why,” translates to “it doesn’t really work.” Thus a fake explanation adds credibility and believability. And if it does work, then people feel reassured and confident in the fake explanation.
It’s all pretty tricky human psychology though.
Really? So a limited number of intellectual elite are the only people capable of accepting faith-based arguments?
> It’s all pretty tricky human psychology though.
Indeed.
The story of Ignaz Semmelweis seems to indicate that medicine is different from physics in that aspect.
It's ironic that virtually all drugs are discovered via effects and not designed via a known mechanism.
Once a novel compound is discovered, and the mechanism characterized, tweaking it to get better binding affinity for the affected binding site, or reduced affinity to a side-effect-producing site, is tractable and is practiced in industry and research.
> Perhaps there's a relationship between the perceived need for a scientific sounding explanation and compatibility with traditional medicine for a particular idea.
I think there is a chemical reward system in play in order to even want to seek information, of any quality. Even in its most utterly click-baity, priori, emotionally contrived or pseudo-scientific form...(needing something "science.")
It isn't as deep of a reward system as the one engaged where you are totally in awe of natures order and discover the capacity to produce information and thus direct some control over it through planning...(demonstrable compatibility.)(its too bad the click-bait people aren't selling better dope.)
That biology produces complex molecules which are even 'compatible between organisms in plant and animal is pretty awe inspiring. And, that the control of human intention has any control over nature, electrochemically or otherwise, likewise so.
A couple movies come to mind: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pleasure-finding-things-out/https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/botany-desire/
I've been doing empirical research on "the vibe" for that reason. It is commonly enough discussed in popular culture and is clearly valuable. Yet, there is almost nothing scholarly written about it. To me, as a scientist, that says "low hanging fruit." Any association with the esoteric will create a kind of forcefield around it, so many fewer scientists will have studied it. But, in my opinion, the topics are avoided for the wrong reasons.
the cervix also modifies itself under stress (child birth), stimulated by oxytocin (aka cervical ripening) or other hormones
Stress ramps up blood pressure, causes changes in the properties of blood directly, increases inflammation, down regulates the immune system and healing in general, increases muscle tension generally, constricts blood vessels, causes changes in hormones and cell signalling molecules in general.
Dead Comment
The first thing I thought that sounded like was ancient Chinese medicine and the Meridian system. [1]
Next I thought of the reflexology diagrams of areas of the bottom of the foot being connected to different parts of the body. The foot is a body part particularly rich in fascia.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_(Chinese_medicine)
I believe that connective tissues do have real function and massages could have some mild health benefits. But I don't like this article because it doesn't sound like science. And there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments.
The article is specifically about the fact that the scientific community has little knowledge or consensus about this topic, but that hypotheses are being formulated and research undertaken.
This is the epitome of how science progresses in as-yet unexplored fields.
> there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments
Perhaps you should provide evidence that measures up to your own standards: what data is there to demonstrate that significant numbers of people have died of cardiovascular illness because they tried to treat serious limb swelling with just massage?
On the flipside, here's some relevant data:
– "Drug overdose deaths involving prescription opioids rose from 3,442 in 1999 to 17,029 in 2017" [1]
– "Orthopedic pain (34.8%) was the primary reason for an opioid prescription, followed by [...], back pain (14.0%), and headache (12.9%)" [2]
If it turns out that fascia-related issues are frequently a factor in these kinds of chronic pain conditions, which currently seems at least somewhat plausible, it may well turn out to be a scandal that this topic has not yet been more heavily researched, given that many people outside the pharmaceutical sector of the health industry have been talking about it for years or even decades.
[1] https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/o...
[2] https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(19)30216-8/pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolfing
> It is based on Rolf's ideas about how the human body's "energy field" can benefit when aligned with the Earth's gravitational field
Nope.
> My reader will not wonder, that, after having ascertained the superior goodness of dephlogisticated air by mice living in it, and the other tests above mentioned, I should have the curiosity to taste it myself.
Nope.
It’s important to remember that unbelievable beliefs associated with observations do not implicitly negate the observations, especially when it comes to understudied areas of the human body.
What we know about the vagus nerve today seemed insane and nonsensical fifty years ago, but historical writings for hundreds of years are filled with tales of drinking magic elixirs that change people’s mind and body. Magic? Probably not. Valid? Possibly so.
Further study is required, if only to separate the magic from the biology.
^ https://thoracickey.com/joseph-priestley-oxygen-and-the-enli...
http://www.rsi.org.uk/whatis/damaged_muscles.html
And something called trigger point therapy:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myofascial-pa...