When I was post-doc at a well-respected university, the Profs treated me with a combination with disrespect and contempt (when they were not outright ignoring me). I switched to industry; my pay went up 3X-fold, and my talented colleagues praised those problem-solving abilities that I developed over the course of my academic career. My advice to you; f*ck academia! Its a petty pointless prison where you’ll never do anything worthwhile. Switch to industry in order to work and projects that actually have some impact on the world. Only then will you be treated with respect.
> the Profs treated me with a combination with disrespect and contempt (when they were not outright ignoring me).
That's my experience of working with PhDs in software development (Germany). Yes, you are very smart Mr. Dr. Whatever. No, your PhD doesn't give you authority on picking the building blocks for the front-end and devops stacks. Now chill and bugger off, go back to the C++ image processing ML models (1 year of development and no release still).
> No, your PhD doesn't give you authority on picking the building blocks for the front-end and devops stacks. Now chill and bugger off, go back to the C++ image processing ML models (1 year of development and no release still).
There is a pretty big gap between a computer science PhD and software engineering in general. I'd rather have someone that did 4 years of software engineering pick the tech stack than someone that did 4 years doing a computer science PhD.
I've worked with lots of PhDs from all over the world, and I've seen something similar from the Germans among them. Trying to assign menial tasks to their "lesser" colleagues; trying to meddle in their work and impose arbitrary decisions on them. In fact, I've seen them do it among themselves and not just to the non-PhDs.
I've had many coworkers and several bosses with PhDs and I've not seen any negative attitude from them.
In the past I did work with a couple of guys from academia who had little interest in building stuff we could commercialize and that was challenging in the context of a for-profit company.
When I was a developer at a well-respected company, the managers treated me with a combination with disrespect and contempt (when they were not outright ignoring me). I switched to academia, government and the non-profit sector; my pay went up 3X-fold, and my talented colleagues praised those problem-solving abilities that I developed over the course of my commercial career. My advice to you; f*ck industry! Its a petty pointless prison where you’ll never do anything worthwhile. Switch to academia, government or non-profits in order to work and projects that actually have some positive impact on the world. Only then will you be treated with respect.
I left academia in the UK as a postdoc in robotics, joined Firebase via H1B visa to San Fransisco, got aquired by Google, worked for 4 years.
I found working for Google stressful, but lucrative and so it was the best decision i made. It totally change the course of my life for the better. I learnt so much about building teams, scaling impact, productionizing software, dealing with public. I missed academic problems, they are fun, but knowing your software has millions of users feels better and its nice having family vaguely recognize what you do.
The medical and financial stability let me start a family without fear, not having to stress about money is a huge weight off my shoulders. I feel very lucky.
Not sure how repetable that is. I was lucky to get a h1b, and i was lucky picking a winner like Firebase early stage, but i genuinely beleived it was the future of development. So great move, and i think i could go back into academia if i wanted, so its left me in a stronger position.
I had failed to make a multiplayer computer game with traditional approach and realized firebase solved all my concurrency and push problems in a much neater way, and the security language didnt compromise too much expressivity unlike many other SaaS dbs. So i saw it solved a real problem in a simple way, way better with better ergonomics than i could do myself
I found out about it just by reading hacknews and noticed it seemed to be posting a lot and well.
I did my PhD in physics, and worked as a SWE right after graduation. Halfway through grad school, I started to feel academia is not my thing, but I cannot quit for all sorts of reasons (at least if thought so at the time). I used Matlab/FORTRAN/python for data analysis in my research work and intentionally looked into CS stuff along the way. I loved it, took a lot of MOOC and managed to eventually get a job in the industry. I loved it in the beginning, spent a lot of personal time doing work and had no complaints. The industry has amazing stride of coming up new technology/ideas, there is always something I can learn which never makes me bored. Most of the people seem generally smart and love their job. Over time I start to realize work is work and there are many factors in the play. I have to find a balance among interesting work, nice colleagues and good pay, but it is not too hard given the amount of opportunities the industry offers. Overall I am happy I made the move.
My academia background wasn’t in the CS field, so I am not sure how relevant my experience is. I did often need to look up and read CS papers to help with my job, obviously not the same way as in research. I hated paper reading in grad school but start to enjoy it now, one of the reasons is the interest and motivation are stronger and also the for-fun mindset. Strangely it came to me that maybe things would work out as well had I stayed in academia.
> I hated paper reading in grad school but start to enjoy it now, one of the reasons is the interest and motivation are stronger and also the for-fun mindset.
You're not alone! I found reading papers for the sake of reading them to be boring. I'm not smart enough to read papers for fun like that. I need motivation. As soon as I'm actually working on software, I can cut through relevant papers and documentation like butter. Anything that isn't relevant to a problem I've created for myself is very hard to get through.
Matt Welch has written extensively about switching from tenured Professor at Harvard to Software Engineer at Google: http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/, with the initial post http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-im-leaving-harvar... Matt's blog is great because (a) he writes it, (b) he's still connected to academia via program committees and (c) you can see how his thinking has evolved over the last 8 years.
And there are of course a number of other former faculty there too, but none that I know of who've blogged as much as Matt. In the systems space, off the top of my head: Amin Vahdat, Mike Dahlin, Steve Gribble, Craig Chambers, David Patterson, David Wetherall, Eric Brewer.
Personally, I've had way more impact (and fun!) building Compute Engine and Kubernetes than I had in academia. If in doubt, try industry for a summer or a year -- nothing we write can replace personal experience.
Given that he put "teaching" in with "overhead", there's no shock that he left. The precise reason I chose to push to continue into a professor position was my love of teaching, and my willingness to sacrifice lucrative pay and work-life balance for it.
To me, hearing this is like an architect talking about loving the job, but not caring for all the designing buildings it seems to entail. And it's part of the reason that I never advise my students who dislike teaching to even contemplate the academic job market and trying to get a faculty position. If you don't love teaching, go get actually paid elsewhere.
At a tier one, you are paid to do research, not teach, unless you are a clinical or adjunct. So it’s not just the professor binning teaching as overhead, but the universities as well.
If you love teaching, then being a professor at a top tier CS program might not be the right choice.
I finished my PhD in neuroscience, then went to work for a new biotech startup in the Bay Area. I did a mix of programming and chemistry automation there. Then I started a software company with a lifelong friend and after a couple years we found product market fit and it took off. We’re almost 100 people now.
The work I do now has nothing to do with neuroscience, but I have zero regrets about my PhD. It was a fascinating period for me and I view it as an adventure I did in my 20s. I loved the work I did and it didn’t need to lead into something else.
An education :) Two start ups after phd and postdoc. Liked academia but couldn't afford it with two young kids. Joined a well funded start up. Was great for the range of problems I got to engage with. Was eventually sold to a multinational and very quickly turned into a soul destroying journey into the abyss. So much dreadful politics and nastiness. Left for another start up and am enjoying it. Have been involved in more of the business side this time, which is also interesting (and maybe depressing). I think I like the early stages of making something new. Supporting production systems and generally being "in operations" isn't my cup of tea. Your experience may vary...
Strangely mostly miss teaching rather than research. I do more research now, just don't publish it.
I earned a PhD in Neuroscience. Then suffered through a couple of postdocs and was not advancing in that career. I jumped ship to tech, working at startups and big-ish companies in San Francisco. The money was nice but working style did not match my preferences (frequent interruptions, projects decided by others, and hierarchies).
I decided to go back to academia (and stay in SF), primarily teaching Data Science. I realized that teaching is my passion. I took a pay cut, but it is more joyful for me. I can pick the courses I teach and get to mentor students. As I long I deliver, I can manage my time how I please. I still consult with tech companies.
I realized that I had to make my own way through my life. I found my niche which is 75% academic and 25% industry.
Readit News
That's my experience of working with PhDs in software development (Germany). Yes, you are very smart Mr. Dr. Whatever. No, your PhD doesn't give you authority on picking the building blocks for the front-end and devops stacks. Now chill and bugger off, go back to the C++ image processing ML models (1 year of development and no release still).
There is a pretty big gap between a computer science PhD and software engineering in general. I'd rather have someone that did 4 years of software engineering pick the tech stack than someone that did 4 years doing a computer science PhD.
In the past I did work with a couple of guys from academia who had little interest in building stuff we could commercialize and that was challenging in the context of a for-profit company.
Still, that was the exception and not the rule.
Not sure how repetable that is. I was lucky to get a h1b, and i was lucky picking a winner like Firebase early stage, but i genuinely beleived it was the future of development. So great move, and i think i could go back into academia if i wanted, so its left me in a stronger position.
What was your reasoning to join firebase in its initial days ?
I found out about it just by reading hacknews and noticed it seemed to be posting a lot and well.
My academia background wasn’t in the CS field, so I am not sure how relevant my experience is. I did often need to look up and read CS papers to help with my job, obviously not the same way as in research. I hated paper reading in grad school but start to enjoy it now, one of the reasons is the interest and motivation are stronger and also the for-fun mindset. Strangely it came to me that maybe things would work out as well had I stayed in academia.
You're not alone! I found reading papers for the sake of reading them to be boring. I'm not smart enough to read papers for fun like that. I need motivation. As soon as I'm actually working on software, I can cut through relevant papers and documentation like butter. Anything that isn't relevant to a problem I've created for myself is very hard to get through.
And there are of course a number of other former faculty there too, but none that I know of who've blogged as much as Matt. In the systems space, off the top of my head: Amin Vahdat, Mike Dahlin, Steve Gribble, Craig Chambers, David Patterson, David Wetherall, Eric Brewer.
Personally, I've had way more impact (and fun!) building Compute Engine and Kubernetes than I had in academia. If in doubt, try industry for a summer or a year -- nothing we write can replace personal experience.
To me, hearing this is like an architect talking about loving the job, but not caring for all the designing buildings it seems to entail. And it's part of the reason that I never advise my students who dislike teaching to even contemplate the academic job market and trying to get a faculty position. If you don't love teaching, go get actually paid elsewhere.
If you love teaching, then being a professor at a top tier CS program might not be the right choice.
The work I do now has nothing to do with neuroscience, but I have zero regrets about my PhD. It was a fascinating period for me and I view it as an adventure I did in my 20s. I loved the work I did and it didn’t need to lead into something else.
I decided to go back to academia (and stay in SF), primarily teaching Data Science. I realized that teaching is my passion. I took a pay cut, but it is more joyful for me. I can pick the courses I teach and get to mentor students. As I long I deliver, I can manage my time how I please. I still consult with tech companies.
I realized that I had to make my own way through my life. I found my niche which is 75% academic and 25% industry.
Deleted Comment