Do you all think Silicon Valley should make a public statement and distance themselves from MBS?
After all the photo-ops among executives at Apples, Google and FB it looks embarrassing to have a photo with a possible murderer out there. Or from the PR perspective, it's best to keep quiet and not remind the public at all and hope no one would bring it up?
> Do you all think Silicon Valley should make a public statement and distance themselves from MBS?
Silicon Valley should have made a public statement a long time ago about what MBS is doing to Yemen. It's quite ridiculous that being directly responsible for the deaths of thousands is A-OK, but ohhh kill one journalist and the western world loses their shit.
> kill one journalist and the western world loses their shit.
I would argue that the Western world largely didn't care, but the journalistic class which controls a large chunk of what people think is happening had a tantrum. This was not a "look at what Trump did this week" tantrum, but rather a "these guys just killed one of us, YOU HAVE TO CARE" tantrum.
You can tell it's this because the journalists themselves don't really care that he died trying to expose what is happening in Yemen - they only care that a fellow journalist died a fairly gruesome death.
I am not excusing any belligerents in the Yemen conflict, however the cause of that conflict is a coup that resulted in a failed extremist state. Conditions for the people of Yemen would be dire no matter which way that military intervention went. This is, unfortunately, the reason why that conflict isn't getting more attention.
Only a servile culture would have led to all those SV head honchos prostrating themselves as they did for the prince...I took one look at the photos and wondered how is it that none of their handlers advised them against it...Wannabe reformed dictators using eager and naive westerners to burnish their reputation is an old and well known tactic.
If it went down anything like how the Saudi aid reported, practically everything was done over Skype. As we know that the intelligence community has been granted unfettered access to Skype, this entire investigation seems like a show crafted to sway public opinion, making me doubtful anything will change.
Still, always interesting to see how much more important one US resident is versus thousands of Yemeni civilians.
This is probably an unpopular opinion: I do think the US should do more about a US person being killed versus a person with no legal/jurisdictional ties to the US.
This isn’t to say that the US should care less about a non-US person, but that the issues with violation of state sovereignty (aka Westphalian sovereignty) are too grave to advocate action.
>This isn’t to say that the US should care less about a non-US person, but that the issues with violation of state sovereignty (aka Westphalian sovereignty) are too grave to advocate action.
If this is the issue, the US should not start/participate/assist in wars that violate international law, should not run a drone strike program that allows an arbitrary death sentence without any trial, should stop their policy of regime change and interference in foreign governments, and the countless other ways we usurp sovereignty.
In theory I completely agree with you, but this bridge has long since been crossed, and I doubt that it is the reason the media only cares if there is a tie to the US.
> this entire investigation seems like a show crafted to sway public opinion, making me doubtful anything will change
What would the purpose of such a show be? Before the whole thing, US relations with Arabia were much more positive than US public opinion toward Arabia. If the US wanted to distance itself from Arabia, it wouldn't need to swing public opinion by staging a show trial; public opinion was already there.
It could have easily turned out differently. Our president was thinking about handing over a US resident to Erdogan so he can be killed, just so he could get Erdogan to lay off of Bin Salman for killing another US resident. And let's not forget how we experienced a coordinated terrorist attack by 15 Saudis that killed thousands of Americans and we decided to go to war with Iraq and Afganistan to get them back. Our diplomatic/business relationship with SA has always been more important than American lives.
The only thing that made this different is that this time there were some people in power who decided to make it a big deal.
This is just so lazy. Yes many of the 9/11 guys were Saudi citizens, but you can’t draw straight lines between that and the Saudi government. Toppling the house of Saud is an explicit goal of Al Qaeda. It’s like suggesting Snowden is clearly acting on behalf of the US government because, duh, he’s a US citizen.
As for people in power making the Khashoggi case a big deal, that would be the Turkish government. They have many reasons for disliking the Saudi leadership, so many I won’t even try.
Turkey has been playing a masterful game of "trickle truth" perfectly timed with the media cycle to undermine the Saudi regime. I'm surprised at how well they're managing international propaganda considering that many of their previous efforts on other issues were clumsy and ineffectual.
>>Officials cautioned, however, that the American and Turkish intelligence agencies still do not have direct evidence linking Prince Mohammed to the assassination.
The evidence included an intercept showing a member of the kill team calling an aide to Prince Mohammed and saying “tell your boss” that the mission was accomplished.
That just means they don't have evidence they're willing to disclose, because the disclosure is outweighed by the potential harm to the national interest.
The noteworthy thing here is not that the Saudi's are doing stuff like this but that the CIA is calling them out on it instead of helping their former ally to bury the bodies and get away with it.
It's a big change. The Saudi's have been instrumental for decades in the foreign policy of the US in the middle east. And that's despite al queeda, IS, etc being founded by Saudi's and openly funded by them. For decades it was very convenient for the US to provide active military support to the Saudi's in various ugly wars by proxy in the region and look the other way when it came to such things like genocide, occasional bombing of schools, hospitals, etc., Muslim extremists, and public beheadings.
However, recent focus on energy independence and a string of embarrassing incidents around e.g. Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. seems to be souring the relationship. Times are changing.
Erdoğan wants him, but in return for what? Maybe preventing the audio of the killing ending up on YouTube (or otherwise made public). If the CIA is saying MBS ordered the killing, the effect is maybe the same.
Also: why does the CIA care what happens to Gulen?
Doesn't Gulen have a right to challenge this in US Courts? Any lawyers here...does he have a chance in courts? The process in Turkey surely seems political.
According to mutual agreement between Turkey and US, US is actually obliged to return him Turkey. As far as I understand from what I read Erdogan does not want him back to Turkey but extradited to a 3rd country, not sure why. Probably he won't be able to run his network as efficiently as he can from say South Africa.
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After all the photo-ops among executives at Apples, Google and FB it looks embarrassing to have a photo with a possible murderer out there. Or from the PR perspective, it's best to keep quiet and not remind the public at all and hope no one would bring it up?
Silicon Valley should have made a public statement a long time ago about what MBS is doing to Yemen. It's quite ridiculous that being directly responsible for the deaths of thousands is A-OK, but ohhh kill one journalist and the western world loses their shit.
I would argue that the Western world largely didn't care, but the journalistic class which controls a large chunk of what people think is happening had a tantrum. This was not a "look at what Trump did this week" tantrum, but rather a "these guys just killed one of us, YOU HAVE TO CARE" tantrum.
You can tell it's this because the journalists themselves don't really care that he died trying to expose what is happening in Yemen - they only care that a fellow journalist died a fairly gruesome death.
Privately ($ with a B in the front of it), let's be real, would you ?
You so funny.
Did you see WeWork just raising money from Softbank a week or two ago?
When SV's virtue signaling meets demands in rent, SV virtue becomes dropping on its knees in front of anyone who would give it money.
Still, always interesting to see how much more important one US resident is versus thousands of Yemeni civilians.
This isn’t to say that the US should care less about a non-US person, but that the issues with violation of state sovereignty (aka Westphalian sovereignty) are too grave to advocate action.
If this is the issue, the US should not start/participate/assist in wars that violate international law, should not run a drone strike program that allows an arbitrary death sentence without any trial, should stop their policy of regime change and interference in foreign governments, and the countless other ways we usurp sovereignty.
In theory I completely agree with you, but this bridge has long since been crossed, and I doubt that it is the reason the media only cares if there is a tie to the US.
What would the purpose of such a show be? Before the whole thing, US relations with Arabia were much more positive than US public opinion toward Arabia. If the US wanted to distance itself from Arabia, it wouldn't need to swing public opinion by staging a show trial; public opinion was already there.
The only thing that made this different is that this time there were some people in power who decided to make it a big deal.
As for people in power making the Khashoggi case a big deal, that would be the Turkish government. They have many reasons for disliking the Saudi leadership, so many I won’t even try.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael-morell-apologizes-colin...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_co...
https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-iran-1953-coup/
Why do people still take their statements, and even their leaks, as truth?
The CIA in this case is merely reflecting the sentiments of countless govts, news agencies, and individuals.
(If the CIA's behavior with Saddam and Osama are precedent, we might want to mentally prepare to hear the stupidest war rally speach of all time.)
The evidence included an intercept showing a member of the kill team calling an aide to Prince Mohammed and saying “tell your boss” that the mission was accomplished.
It's a big change. The Saudi's have been instrumental for decades in the foreign policy of the US in the middle east. And that's despite al queeda, IS, etc being founded by Saudi's and openly funded by them. For decades it was very convenient for the US to provide active military support to the Saudi's in various ugly wars by proxy in the region and look the other way when it came to such things like genocide, occasional bombing of schools, hospitals, etc., Muslim extremists, and public beheadings.
However, recent focus on energy independence and a string of embarrassing incidents around e.g. Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. seems to be souring the relationship. Times are changing.
Deleted Comment
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-trump-sacrifices-fe...
Erdoğan wants him, but in return for what? Maybe preventing the audio of the killing ending up on YouTube (or otherwise made public). If the CIA is saying MBS ordered the killing, the effect is maybe the same.
Also: why does the CIA care what happens to Gulen?
Talk about win-win-win!