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Posted by u/_tgdn 8 years ago
Ask HN: How can felons find programming jobs?
I've been unemployed for 12 months, went to jail 7 months ago for 2 months, applied for dozens of jobs per week for the past 5 months straight, and almost every single one of them has turned me down because I have a felony.

I've tried not disclosing it, disclosing it early, disclosing it in the middle of the interview process, and disclosing it at the end when they make me an offer. They all turn me down.

Half of them are judgmental turn-downs - they won't return my call and never get back to me, because they think poorly of me.

Half are policy - Goldman Sachs made me an offer last month, but withdrew it this morning due to their policy against hiring felons.

I only have enough money to last us through April, and that's literally because our local parish gave us a $1,000 check out of nowhere, which adds to what's left over from our tax return.

I'm a hard worker with a wife and 5 kids to support. I just need a job, but nobody will hire me due to my background. Any pointers or advice would be greatly appreciated. Especially any pointers on where to actually find a job.

Because I'm still on probation, I can't move out of state and can either work remote or local (greater Chicago area). Most of the jobs out here require 3+ years in C# which I don't have and don't feel comfortable lying about either.

For more background, the felony is from flashing someone (while drunk) who was just under 17 years old. This was the second offense (the other was years ago). They are inexcusable and disgusting offenses, but they are permanently on my background.

EDIT #1: my crime was in 4 local major newspapers, and all 4 online news articles show up when you google my name, so hiding my background is not really a possibility here. About 4 months ago, a small local software firm, which would have been an amazing job, said "I know you said you're looking for 70k, but we'd like to offer you 75k", and I asked them to give me a few days to think it over, which he was happy to do. Then they never responded to my calls after that, presumably because they found out about this.

EDIT #2: I am no longer able to reply to anyone here, since HN now says "slow down, you're posting too fast" when I try, so, um, sorry if I don't reply to you before that resets (probably tomorrow).

zer00eyz · 8 years ago
Im going to give you some either great advice or bad advice - only time will tell.

First of all take ANY job you can get - this means starbucks is on the table - Get back to work, even part time.

Second if you have skills then start putting them to use - open source, build your own thing what ever. At least 2-3 hours a day of WORK. Google up non profits that help fellons find jobs and ask them if they can use your services as a volunteer. You never know where opportunity will come from.

Third, start a blog. Tell your story, put your real name on it. It is compelling and your looking to make a change. Show your work, name the companies that reject you - you have probably given out enough info for me to find out who you are any way just own it.

My last hint - lots of "temp agencys" and "placement agencies" will happily take you on as someone they can place. Most of them don't care if you were a rapist or a murder - it wasn't a financial crime so your fairly safe to employ. I once worked at one and they ran background checks for finance ONLY - everything else was kosher.

JshWright · 8 years ago
I agree with 99% of this. I don't think there's any value in publicly naming the companies that have rejected you, and there is a potential that it would be detrimental (how would a potential employer view that?). I just don't think the risk (however slight) outweighs the (practically nonexistent) reward.
zer00eyz · 8 years ago
Your dead wrong.

For years there was "no value" in discussing salary... but companies were allowed to ask you "how much did you make at your last job".

So we have/had a system that is "pro company" and "anti-worker" that took a LONG time to change and let a lot of things that we probably always would have been upset about go on.

There is value in publicly naming the company that didn't hire him. It stops someone else in his position from wasting their time. The only entity that benefits from him NOT disclosing the policy is the hiring company.

It "might" make a company look bad if it got out that they DO or DONT hire people who were once criminals - and then we get into a larger set of questions.

Is their policy a stealth racial bias? Is the purpose of the justice system to lock people up and then create social shunning or reform?

This is another case where tradition and the status quo does not make sense.

adamsea · 8 years ago
Agreed - don't name those companies publicly. It's an extension of the principle not to talk poorly of previous employers, etc. The risk is rarely worth the reward.
adamsea · 8 years ago
https://www.builtinchicago.org/ -- a small startup may be more forgiving of your history. While I have no hiring experience, if I was doing hiring for a small startup, I would want the potential employee to share upfront (perhaps in the second round, definitely in the in-person, not necessarily the very first call) if they were a felon (or for that matter, any other potential red flag which would it'd be reasonable to expect me to discover on a background check). Obviously YMMV.

Also agree w/the parent comment wholeheartedly.

RBBronson123 · 8 years ago
Please contact me (Richard@70MillionJobs.com) We're the first for-profit recruitment platform for people with records. We work with many large, national employers, as well as many tech companies. (We're a YC company) We have amassed a community of 1 million + active job seekers, and are providing significant HR solutions to big companies. I believe we can help you. (No charge of any kind to an applicant.)

Deleted Comment

helpfulthr312 · 8 years ago
Some ideas for you, take anything you like:

* Check out the porn industry. They are always pushing boundaries of what is possible with tech and felons frequently work in the industry.

* Military service is a "customary shortcut to public affirmation". It may be possible to enlist in some branch somewhere and request a waiver for your felony.

* Improve your portfolio. If you are a good enough developer, people will overlook certain things.

* Find a desperate entrepreneur who will pay you the bare minimum cash to support your family, along with some equity.

* Start learning C#, it's actually a great language, loved by man.

austincheney · 8 years ago
I second the military route. Starting out it will be substantially less pay than a developer job in the civilian world, but it is a valid path of redemption. Contrary to popular belief a prior felony, depending upon what it is, won't necessarily stop you from even getting a top secret clearance.

Join the military under any form of "signal" branch MOS. All enlisted signal jobs require a secret security clearance and you might be able to get that directly depending upon what you were convicted of. Once you have been in for a bit and become an NCO you have some internal credibility to possibly transition to military intelligence or become a signal warrant officer of which both require a top secret clearance.

The trick to passing a security check in the military is disclosure. Be up front about your prior legal troubles with the investigating authority and don't hide anything. This is typically a recipe for immediate failure in the civilian world, but the military has greater resources to further investigate these issues and make more thorough determinations.

Once you hold a TS/SCI for a couple of years you can put that on a resume when you are ready to reenter the civilian corporate world. When people see active "Top Secret / Secure Compartmentalized Information" clearance on a resume they immediately think trustworthy despite that a background check will ultimately identify your prior felony. You are vetted, at great expense, by an external federal agency.

busterarm · 8 years ago
The porn (software) industry isn't really in his area at all. He can't pick up and move to Montreal.

In fact, as a felon he probably can't go to Canada at all.

DoreenMichele · 8 years ago
Military service is a "customary shortcut to public affirmation". It may be possible to enlist in some branch somewhere and request a waiver for your felony.

My ex was career army and did a stint as a military recruiter. At that time, you could not join if you already had more than 2 children. OP states he has a wife and 5 kids. There are also age limits and other automatic bars.

All such details vary from one service to another. IIRC, you cannot join the army infantry with flat feet, but the navy has no problem with this.

If the OP (or anyone) is interested in the military option, they should do a quick Google or make a few phone calls to the nearest recruiting office to check on such details. I would hate to see them waste a whole lot of time on something only to learn it is a dead end for them.

jpindar · 8 years ago
> Find a desperate entrepreneur who will pay you the bare minimum cash to support your family, along with some equity.

How do you do this? Isn't implying that you'll work for a low salary a big red flag?

I see here on HN that some companies won't consider older workers because of the idea that they demand a lot of money, but I have no idea how to show that I am an exception to this stereotype. I sometimes tell recruiters etc. that I'm more interested in good working conditions or a convenient location than salary, which is true, but that's as far as I dare go.

sexoffender · 8 years ago
I know C#, learned it over winter break a few years ago, but have not used it for 3+ years in a professional setting. That's the issue. Even if I try to make hobby apps with it, nobody will hire me for a job using it. Unless I look for entry-level jobs, but even then a recent college grad is a better choice than me.
rrw023 · 8 years ago
The C# ecosystem might be less than ideal for you to spend your time learning. Start thinking about how certain programming languages might correlate with certain types of industries. You're going to want to target companies that are less likely to bother checking in to your background, and if they do, are less likely to care. Think more along the lines of hipster startup development and less along the lines of conservative enterprise development. This might mean focusing your efforts on learning the Javascript of Python ecosystems instead.
garrettgrimsley · 8 years ago
Hi OP, another felon looking for a job here, I got out this January after serving 11 months. I would encourage you to apply for whatever government benefits you qualify for, if you haven't already. Just like you I've had offers rescinded after the background check. Doesn't feel great, but you have to keep at it. As someone else said: Get a job. Get any job. Right now I'm working at a commercial fish market doing manual labor. At the same time, I'm teaching myself Android development so that I have a portfolio I can show prospective employers. If I still can't get a job I'm going to try freelancing.

>Because I'm still on probation, I can't move out of state

This may not be true. I'm on Federal probation, not state, so it may be different, but you can have your probation transferred to another state. The receiving state must agree to accept you, which may be an issue as a sex offender. Best of luck.

rrw023 · 8 years ago
I'm a federal felon myself and have found success by applying to companies based in states/cities which have "banned the box" for private employers. I'm currently working in a very respectable software engineering position, in a region which hasn't banned the box. The largest part of this companies workforce however, is based in an office located in a state which HAS banned the box for private employers. They never had a felony conviction checkbox for me to check on the job application, and they didn't bother running a background check which included the federal system. I've found that probably only around 50% of companies will include a federal background check. When it comes to background checks for housing or background checks for recruiting agencies, virtually none of them will do this.
clackanon · 8 years ago
I'd be interested in talking to you more about your situation. How does one reach you?
varcharlie · 8 years ago
This is a time consuming process that requires going to court and being accepted/coordinated by the receiving party. That makes it near impossible if you've already received an offer, since many offers are time-limited.
garrettgrimsley · 8 years ago
I'm on Federal probation, so transfers are based on court district. How it works is that I can get what is called "courtesy supervision" from the receiving district. Both the US Probation Officer in the receiving district and my home district must agree. While I'm under "courtesy supervision" my case is still in my home district, but I can live and travel in the receiving district under the supervision of a PO in the receiving district.

During my currently fruitless job search I've kept my PO in the loop about jobs/locations that could prove fruitful. He and his supervisor have both communicated to me that getting courtesy supervision and then a transfer should not be an issue in my case. They both said that already having a job in the receiving district goes a long way to getting a transfer, since you'll be stable there.

OP is on state probation though, so his situation is different. I would advise him to speak with his probation officer about what his options are in terms of "courtesy supervision". I looked up what the Interstate Commission for Adult Offender Supervision says about sex offender transfers [0] and it seems that sex offenders have it worse than other offenders. While non-sex offender transfers are on a "shall issue" basis provided some easily fulfilled prerequisites [1] the sex-offenders are subject to a review period of a maximum of 5 days after which time the receiving state may accept/reject their transfer.

OP, talk to your probation officer about what your options are. A move out-of-state may not be out of the question.

[0] https://www.interstatecompact.org/step-by-step/chapter/3/rul...

[1] https://www.interstatecompact.org/step-by-step/chapter/3/rul...

jwilliams · 8 years ago
There is a YC company that is looking at this -- https://www.70millionjobs.com/ (YC S17). Might be worth trying out. Good luck.
fencepost · 8 years ago
Edit: this occurred to me after posting and may be more important than anything else: have you entirely stopped drinking (or using any intoxicants/drugs should IL join the legal pot states)?

If you have a history of getting drunk enough to show terrible judgement but haven't stopped drinking, then you're still showing terrible judgement.

---

Well, stay away from financial and medical - both are going to have background check requirements that may also explicitly bar felons. Anything handling cash or card payments is likely also out based on PCI.

I think the two things I'm going to suggest are setting up a company or at least a DBA (so searches are on the company name not yours) and focusing on things you can do that are outside company networks. Assuming you have technical skills appropriate to HN and some level of design skills, website development may be a place to start. Since you're in Chicago, I'd consider going to WordCamp Chicago in April - it's cheap and informative, even if you start out with static site generators and not WordPress (which has concerns of its own like needing updates and maintenance).

seibelj · 8 years ago
You have paid your debt to society, you should not continue to be punished in perpetuity.

Perhaps make an LLC, and use your middle name in place of your last name when communicating with people? Or legally change your last name? That way they pay you as a contractor, with checks to your business, and no one is the wiser. You are in survival mode now, I wouldn't let pride keep you from changing your name.

sndean · 8 years ago
> Or legally change your last name?

I think there are laws (in most states?) against changing your name if you're a registered sex offender. But trying to get a job using a middle name instead of a first/last name is a decent idea.

Fjolsvith · 8 years ago
A name change doesn't remove the legal requirement to register as a sex offender.
Fjolsvith · 8 years ago
Ex felon here. In my experience, it was far easier to deal with people by being open about my criminal history. In a its-a-no-big-deal-if-you-know sort of way.

If I'm trying to keep it secret, I have all this stress of wondering who knows, lying about it, etc. And that's bad for me because I'm already in a stressful situation.

Putting it out there saved me a lot of time with companies/HR departments by filtering out the haters in the first step. I didn't have to bite my nails wondering what their reaction to the background check would be.

I put my record on the bottom of my resume. My father told me I would never get a job with that, but he was wrong. I landed one two weeks after my release.

I asked the guy who interviewed (and hired) me if he had read about my criminal history on my resume, and he said, "Yeah, that's not a problem. My cousin's been in and out of jail all his life."

pm90 · 8 years ago
He is on probation, so he hasn't paid back his debt just yet.
girvo · 8 years ago
The idea of probation is itself kind of messed up, in some ways. See what Meek Mill (yes, the rapper) has been put through because of a judge that is obsessed with him, along with absolutely idiotic and onerous probation requirements.

Of course, you’re technically correct (the best kind!), but it was a thought I felt like riffing on for a moment.

ggg9990 · 8 years ago
You’re definitely targeting the wrong companies if you are applying to Goldman Sachs. Apply to work remotely for a Bay Area startup like a YC company. They don’t run background checks as frequently or as well and they often don’t care about whether their remote employees are felons (while they might care about on-site employees).
sexoffender · 8 years ago
Since November I have applied at every type of job: silicon valley start-ups with just a few people, software consulting firms with a dozen or two dozen consultants, and large corporations like GS. Initially GS told me the felony wouldn't be an issue, made me an offer, and dragged me along for about 4 weeks after that, reassuring me the job was a sure thing. Only this morning they changed their mind out of nowhere. Otherwise I wouldn't have wasted so much time with them, as I was up-front with them early on.
rrw023 · 8 years ago
As a felon myself, I have never had anything good come out of early disclosure. I think your best bet would be to target jobs in areas that have "banned the box" for private employers (I believe Chicago is one of these cities). If you receive a conditional offer of employment, they will most likely run a background check at that point. Some lower quality background checking services can provide surprisingly incomplete results. More than likely though, it will return your conviction history. Once you get that call from the HR representative questioning the conviction, simply state that you didn't feel it was relevant to the position being applied for. Refer them to the EEOC guidelines on hiring people with felony convictions (especially the part about individualized assessments). These guidelines are merely a suggestion, but it might be enough to sway the mind of someone in the company who has that discretion.