zxzax (u/zxzax) - Readit News

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

jrm4 · 4 years ago

It's not all that complicated. I'm presuming there are people and companies out there working to make these interfaces, to some extent, for other people to use. Maybe it's business, maybe it's love.

Thus, I'm commenting as a fan/user/potential customer, who might find this useful in some way. Or not. Sports fans can talk about their team or the state of the game or what they like and don't like. That's what I'm doing. I'm not "demanding," and if anything, I'm arguing for less work. By the GNOME people, because their thing is a waste of time. Go work on the better things :)

zxzax · 4 years ago

>their thing is a waste of time

This is incorrect. GNOME users would not consider it a waste of time, just like KDE users would not consider it a waste of time for someone to do work on KDE, or Mac users would not consider it a waste of time to work on macOS, etc. Please consider that your suggestion can be considered rude, you are simply not the target audience.

In general, open source doesn't work like this. These are volunteers, nobody can really tell them to go work on something else, because they work on what they feel like, which may or may not be seeking the approval of people like you. If you want to find another project that seeks your approval, that's great, go do that, let us know about it later and maybe I'll even try it out. If your goal is to harass open source developers until they quit open source, then please stop doing that, that would be making it worse for everyone.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

jejones3141 · 4 years ago

All I can say is that GNOME 3 seems to take Havoc Pennington's famous essay about as far as it can go, considering configurability a bug. I don't know exactly when it started, but it definitely came to my attention bigtime with the infamous gnome-screensaver.

Useful links: 1. https://ometer.com/preferences.html, the subset of Mr. P's original essay that the original contains a link to. 2. https://www.derstandard.at/story/1313024283546/gnome-designe..., an interview with Jon McCann.

zxzax · 4 years ago

Yes, I would agree that a lot of GNOME developers still view that as a design goal. But not all do, and even so, having less configurability doesn't mean less features. If you ask me, practically speaking, what it has meant is that there is a larger collection of smaller apps to choose from. So if the app you want lacks a configuration option, you might be better served by trying to find a different app that just works the way you want the first time.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

imwillofficial · 4 years ago

You have not argued in good faith. You have continually claimed one thing and then declared the opposite a comment later.

zxzax · 4 years ago

>You have not argued in good faith.

That's not correct, as a show of good faith I've explicitly asked for specific details on what the complaint is. I can't help you if you don't provide those details. If it seems I haven't done that, I apologize, that was not my intention. I'll try to be clearer next time. Let me know if there's anything specific you want me to clear up.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

anthk · 4 years ago

Not leet. Gnome is unusable in any machine older than 2015. Also, CWM flies on my 2007 netbook.

zxzax · 4 years ago

I completely disagree, I'm using GNOME on a laptop from 2008 now. It's working fine for me. I did tweak it a little bit however.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

imwillofficial · 4 years ago

Yes

zxzax · 4 years ago

Thank you for doing that, it's really fortunate that you are, but please understand that not all of your coworkers do the same thing. I think it would be nice if they did, but currently they do not.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

jrm4 · 4 years ago

Obviously, I can't expect them to. I'm not paying them. But I can absolutely encourage and discourage different ways of thinking and doing, and I'm absolutely free to express that. And yes, I would like to discourage "the GNOME way."

To elaborate a bit about why I'm saying this; For quite some time, onboarding people to Linux was pretty easy. "Just use Ubuntu" was a really good answer. And then Unity came along, with a) bloat and b) this new paradigm that was ostensibly as simple as a Mac, but different enough that people wouldn't recognize it. And this was a terrible direction for Ubuntu to go, especially since XP was on its way out.

And now, when people ask me, hey, how do I get started with Linux, and they've heard of Ubuntu, I can't just say "Yeah, go for it." I have to launch into a thing and name 2 or 3 different distros, primarily due to the weirdness of GNOME. I appreciate freedom and choice, but I'm also quite free to say, I believe the following: I really wish the GNOME people would more-or-less give up, because they have mindshare not off of the quality of their current interface, but because of the momentum of their old one plus Ubuntu. I believe that (much like Windows, frankly) if they actually had to compete in this space on the merits, they'd lose out.

KDE (and LXDE and others) are doing a better job of making a predictable useful interface.

zxzax · 4 years ago

I don't understand what you're trying to discourage, what you're saying doesn't follow. That has nothing to do with "the GNOME way" and is mostly related to the decisions made by Canonical, who decided to make their own desktop, and then dropped it in favor of GNOME. Asking the GNOME people to give up isn't going to make it viable for Ubuntu to develop their own desktop again that is more to your liking. Your issue is with them, not with GNOME. And according to them, you seem to have it exactly backwards: it was Unity that was not able to compete on merits, so it was dropped in favor of GNOME.

But anyway it sounds like you just fixed that by using a different distro, you can even just suggest the KDE or LXDE spins of Ubuntu. Those still exist, and it's not hard to use them. If you're already using them then it's very hard for me to see what your actual complaint is or what you're trying to discourage. It's true you're free to express what you want, but please consider that what you're expressing may not be something that was done with having the full information. I've noticed there is a lot of confusion about what GNOME is and a lot of people seem to mix it up and equate it with Ubuntu or Red Hat or something, which is understandable, but it's not true. I'm only here to explain why.

And just to make it painfully clear: it is already hard enough to maintain open source and fix all the issues and improve the quality of the current interfaces, without people constantly demanding that open source maintainers give up and stop fixing bugs. If you want to get things fixed, you really don't need to do this.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

pjmlp · 4 years ago

"Memory leak in gnome-shell JavaScript bindings"

https://access.redhat.com/solutions/3410651

"GNOME Shell Performance Improvements in Ubuntu 20.04"

https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/gnome-shell-performance-impro...

"Boosting the Real Time Performance of Gnome Shell 3.34 in Ubuntu 19.10"

https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/boosting-the-real-time-perfor...

When I complain about GNOME performance, I am not making it up, learn that and bye.

zxzax · 4 years ago

I don't understand what the issue here is or what you want me to learn, those seem to all be bugs that were already fixed. If there are additional unfixed problems that others aren't aware of, and you're not making it up, then please mention those, and maybe I can help you get them reported.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

pjmlp · 4 years ago

GTK3/4 alone not really, as my Linux netbook is doing just fine with XFCE.

Now having GNOME with its Javascript based shell and extensions, making every click take a couple of seconds longer and me wondering what it is doing, no thanks.

zxzax · 4 years ago

The javascript is used mostly to drive the shell GUI, it shouldn't be taking seconds off all your mouse clicks. If there is really bad slowness, you should consider reporting that as a bug, it may not be the javascript that's at fault. The performance shouldn't be any worse than a typical lightweight web app running in firefox. That is of course if you ever end up using GNOME again for whatever reason.

I don't understand why you have to wonder what it's doing, the javascript is all self-contained and hosted locally. It's not using npm or anything like that. And the extensions are pretty much the same as any other app you use that supports plugins.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

csande17 · 4 years ago

If Fedora (or GNOME, for that matter) fits your needs, you should feel free to use it! But if you're wondering, like the grandparent comments, why projects like GNOME seem to be moving away from fitting your needs, the answer is that they're being designed for Red Hat's enterprise customers first and any use you get out of them is a happy afterthought.

zxzax · 4 years ago

Again I'm not sure where you got that, I have not heard any Red Hat or Fedora developers say that's the focus. In fact if you follow GNOME development, there are various other directions that people are pulling in. It might be the case coincidentally for some things, but that could be yet another one of those happy afterthoughts.

zxzax commented on Using IceWM and a Raspberry Pi as my main PC, sharing my theme, config and some raymii.org/s/blog/Using_I... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti

pjmlp · 4 years ago

Everything that implies taking sides is politics, no matter what.

You haven't seen any drama, really?

https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/05/qt_lts_goes_commercia...

C vs C++ flame wars have been a thing since C++ was born at AT&T.

Since you aren't following up the news,

"CppCon 2015: Kate Gregory “Stop Teaching C"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnWhqhNdYyk

"We stopped teaching C"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZUTJ2UNXxI

You can find similar stuff from C side, specially if you back in time to GNOME mailing lists, Usenet archives from comp.lang,languagex

zxzax · 4 years ago

I figured you would post that. I have heard no actual KDE developers saying that's a problem. They don't use Qt LTS. The "drama" there seems to be mostly confined to unrelated internet forums.

As for your posts about C, I can give a personal anecdote: I would agree with those sentiments, C has a lot of really bad problems as a language. But yet, I still write it a lot more often than C++. So It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. Also I checked some of those slides and I wouldn't describe anything there as a "flame war."

>Everything that implies taking sides is politics, no matter what.

If you really want to look at things that way, you could, but this seems to not be strictly true. Just because there is taking sides does not mean there has to be fighting or politics.