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varloid commented on America desperately needs more air traffic controllers   cnn.com/2025/02/04/busine... · Posted by u/mooreds
Octoth0rpe · a year ago
> Wouldn't it be great if Air Force One was stranded because of this.

I was under the impression that AF1 flew in/out of Andrews air force base, which I (possibly naively?) assumed did not use civilian ATC. But yes, that would be great :)

Dead Comment

varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
kristjansson · a year ago
NB they still administered a cognitive test to candidates that passed (blegh) the biographical assessment
varloid · a year ago
After lowering the standards so that 95% of people who took the test would pass.
varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
Aloisius · a year ago
Is it absurd?

The choices for both were Science, Math, English, History/Social Sciences and Physical Education, plus did not attend college for the second.

Math is highly predictive of ATC performance. English is a key requirement due the communication-heavy role. Physical Education is linked to confidence which is a strong predictor of graduation rates.

That leaves History/Social Sciences and Science as oddballs. If you did poorly in Science or History/Social Sciences in high school, that likely didn't change in college, so you would have gotten at least 15 points by answering it the same way for both questions.

I'm not sure there was an expectation that someone would get them both right. Rather having different answers get 15 points ensures people answering both the same way didn't which likely would make the test a bit too easy to pass.

This test just looks like a big five personality test mixed with some socioeconomic and academic questions.

varloid · a year ago
Do you think that makes someone 5 times more likely to be a good ATC than having served as an ATC in the military, which would get you 3 points?

Or infinitely better than being an active ATC, which earned 0?

varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
legitster · a year ago
The difference between this and the college scandal is that there were limited numbers of seats at colleges, so to putting in an underqualified white student meant you had to pull an overqualified Asian student.

The situation here was the ATC was chronically understaffed and unable to fill positions. So an effort for them to boost applications makes sense even under non-DEI principles.

varloid · a year ago
The ATC academy can only handle ~1800 students per year. The issue is high failure rates at the academy and then at the facilities graduates are sent after graduation; increasing the quality of applicants should be the FAA's #1 goal.
varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
dgfitz · a year ago
I'll never find it, but a few days ago someone here posted an anecdotal story that class sizes were between 10-20 and failure/drop rate was ~50%.
varloid · a year ago
Across 2023 and 2024 the en route academy pass rate was ~66% and terminal pass rate was ~73%. Of that, ~25% of en route trainees fail at their facility and ~15-20% of terminal trainees fail at their facility. There are ~2 en route trainees per terminal trainee.
varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
PaulDavisThe1st · a year ago
That is NOT what the first study you've cited says at all:

> "The empirically-keyed, response-option scored biodata scale demonstrated incremental validity over the computerized aptitude test battery in predicting scores representing the core technical skills of en route controllers."

I.e the aptitude test battery is WORSE than the biodata scale.

The second citation you offered merely notes that the AT-SAT battery is a better predictor than the older OPM battery, not that is the best.

I'd also say at a higher level that both of those papers absolutely reek of non-reproduceability and low N problems that plague social and psychological research. I'm not saying they're wrong. They are just not obviously definitive.

varloid · a year ago
> I.e the aptitude test battery is WORSE than the biodata scale.

You're mistaken, it's the opposite. The first one found that AT-SAT performance was the best measure, with the biodata providing a small enhancement:

> AT-SAT scores accounted for 27% of variance in the criterion measure (β=0.520, adjusted R2=.271,p<.001). Biodata accounted for an additional 2% of the variance in CBPM (β=0.134; adjusted ΔR2=0.016,ΔF=5.040, p<.05).

> In other words, after taking AT-SAT into account, CBAS accounted for just a bit more of the variance in the criterion measure

Hence, "incremental validity."

> The second citation you offered merely notes that the AT-SAT battery is a better predictor than the older OPM battery, not that is the best.

You're right, and I can't remember which study it was that explicitly said that it was the best measure. I'll post it here if I find it. However, given that each failed applicant costs the FAA hundreds of thousands of dollars, we can safely assume that there was no better measure readily available at the time, or it would have been used instead of the AT-SAT. Currently they use the ATSA instead of the AT-SAT, which is supposed to be a better predictor, and they're planning on replacing the AT-SAT in a year or two; it's an ongoing problem with ongoing research.

> I'd also say at a higher level that both of those papers absolutely reek of non-reproduceability and low N problems that plague social and psychological research. I'm not saying they're wrong. They are just not obviously definitive.

Given the limited number of controllers, this is going to be an issue in any study you find on the topic. You can only pull so many people off the boards to take these tests, so you're never going to have an enormous sample size.

varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
PaulDavisThe1st · a year ago
No, that's not an answer to that specific question.

Performance on the AT-SAT is not job performance.

If you have a qualification test that feels useful but also turns out to be highly non-predictive of job performance (as, for example, most college entrance exams turn out to be for college performance), you could change the qualification threshold for the test without any particular expectation of losing job performance.

In fact, it is precisely this logic that led many universities to stop using admissions tests - they just failed to predict actual performance very well at all.

varloid · a year ago
> Performance on the AT-SAT is not job performance.

No, but it was the best predictor of job performance and academy pass rate there was.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA566825.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/data_research/resear... (page 41)

There are a fixed number of seats at the ATC academy in OKC, so it's critical to get the highest quality applicants possible to ensure that the pass rate is as high as possible, especially given that the ATC system has been understaffed for decades.

varloid commented on The FAA’s Hiring Scandal   tracingwoodgrains.com/p/t... · Posted by u/firebaze
PaulDavisThe1st · a year ago
The answer to the question you've quoted is important, since it could be "none", "a little bit", "a lot", "any amount", each of which has very different ramifications. There is no answer on the slide ...
varloid · a year ago
They decided that at least some amount was acceptable - the minimum score on the AT-SAT was changed so that 95% of test takers would pass because the original threshold where 60% passed excluded too many black applicants. This was despite previous studies showing that a higher score on the AT-SAT was correlated with better job performance.

u/varloid

KarmaCake day20February 6, 2025View Original