tovej (u/tovej) - Readit News

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

hackinthebochs · 9 hours ago

At this point, anyone claiming that LLMs are "just" language models aren't arguing in good faith. LLMs are a general purpose computing paradigm. LLMs are circuit builders, the converged parameters define pathways through the architecture that pick out specific programs. Or as Karpathy puts it, LLMs are a differentiable computer[1]. Training LLMs discovers programs that well reproduce the input sequence. Tokens can represent anything, not just words. Roughly the same architecture can generate passable images, music, or even video.

[1] https://x.com/karpathy/status/1582807367988654081

tovej · 6 hours ago

If it's an LLM it's a (large) language model. If you use ideas from LLM architecture in other non-language models, they are not language models.

But it is extremely silly to say that "large language models are language models" is a bad faith argument.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

aurareturn · a day ago

  But I don't know what you're asking exactly. Maybe you could specify what it is you mean by "real world model" and what you take fact-regurgitating to mean.

You said this:

  If this existing corpus includes useful information it can regurgitate that.It cannot, however, synthesize new facts by combining information from this corpus.

So I'm wondering if you think world models can synthesize new facts.

tovej · 6 hours ago

A world model can be used to learn something about the real system. I said synthesize because in the context that LLM's work in (using a corpus to generate sentences) that is what that would look like.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

kremi · a day ago

« Connaître est reconnaître »

I don’t think essentialist explanations about how LLMs work are very helpful. It doesn’t give any meaningful explanation of the high level nature of the pattern matching that LLMs are capable of. And it draws a dichotomic line between basic pattern matching and knowledge and reasoning, when it is much more complex than that.

tovej · 6 hours ago

It's especially important not to antropomorphise when there is a risk people actually mistake something for a humanlike being.

What is least helpful is using misleading terms like this, because it makes reasoning about this more difficult. If we assume the model "knows" something, we might reasonably assume it will always act according to that knowledge. That's not true for an LLM, so it's a term that should clearly be a oided.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

aurareturn · 2 days ago

So do we expect real world models to just regurgitate new facts from their training data?

tovej · a day ago

Regurgitating facts kind of assumes it is a language model, as you're assuming a language interface. I would assume a real "world model" or digital twin to be able to reliably model relationships between phenomena in whatever context is being modeled. Validation would probably require experts in whatever thing is being modeled to confirm that the model captures phenomena to some standard of fidelity. Not sure if that's regurgitating facts to you -- it isn't to me.

But I don't know what you're asking exactly. Maybe you could specify what it is you mean by "real world model" and what you take fact-regurgitating to mean.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

kremi · 2 days ago

> The model can be prompted to talk about competitive dynamics. It can produce text that sounds like adversarial reasoning. But the underlying knowledge is not in the training data. It’s in outcomes that were never written down.

With all the social science research and strategy books that LLMs have read, they actually know a LOT about outcomes and dynamics in adversarial situations.

The author does have a point though that LLMs can’t learn these from their human-in-the-loop reinforcement (which is too controlled or simplified to be meaningful).

Also, I suspect the _word_ models of LLMs are not inherently the problem, they are just inefficient representations of world models.

tovej · a day ago

LLM's have not "read" social science research and they do not "know" about the outcomes, they have been trained to replicate the exact text of social science articles.

The articles will not be mutually consistent, and what output the LLM produces will therefore depend on what article the prompt most resembles in vector space and which numbers the RNG happens to produce on any particular prompt.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

wongarsu · 2 days ago

> People only speak or write down information that needs to be added to a base "world model" that a listener or receiver already has

Which companies try to address with image, video and 3d world capabilities, to add that missing context. "Video generation as world simulators" is what OpenAI once called it

> When people produce text, there is always a motive to do so which influences the contents of the text. This subjective information component of producing the text is interpreted no different from any "world model" information.

Obviously you need not only a model of the world, but also of the messenger, so you can understand how subjective information relates to the speaker and the world. Similar to what humans do

> The other issue in this argument is that you're inverting the implication. You say an accurate world model will produce the best word model, but then suddenly this is used to imply that any good word model is a useful world model. This does not compute

The argument is that training neural networks with gradient descent is a universal optimizer. It will always try to find weights for the neural network that cause it to produce the "best" results on your training data, in the constraints of your architecture, training time, random chance, etc. If you give it training data that is best solved by learning basic math, with a neural architecture that is capable of learning basic math, gradient descent will teach your model basic math. Give it enough training data that is best solved with a solution that involves building a world model, and a neural network that is capable of encoding this, then gradient descent will eventually create a world model.

Of course in reality this is not simple. Gradient descent loves to "cheat" and find unexpected shortcuts that apply to your training data but don't generalize. Just because it should be principally possible doesn't mean it's easy, but it's at least a path that can be monetized along the way, and for the moment seems to have captivated investors

tovej · 2 days ago

You did not address the second issue at all. You are inverting the implication in your argument. Whether gradient descent helps solve the language model problem or not does not help you show that this means it's a useful world model.

Let me illustrate the point using a different argument with the same structure: 1) The best professional chefs are excellent at cutting onions 2) Therefore, if we train a model to cuy onions using gradient descent, that model will be a very good profrssional chef

2) clearly does not follow from 1)

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

EMM_386 · 2 days ago

> It cannot, however, synthesize new facts by combining information from this corpus.

That would be like saying studying mathematics can't lead to someone discovering new things in mathematics.

Nothing would ever be "novel" if studying the existing knowledge could not lead to novel solutions.

GPT 5.2 Thinking is solving Erdős Problems that had no prior solution - with a proof.

tovej · 2 days ago

The Erdos problem was solved by interacting with a formal proof tool, and the problem was trivial. I also don't recall if this was the problem someone had already solved prior but not reported, but that does not matter.

The point is that the LLM did not model maths to do this, made calls to a formal proof tool that did model maths, and was essentially working as the step function to a search algorithm, iterating until it found the zero in the function.

That's clever use of the LLM as a component in a search algorithm, but the secret sauce here is not the LLM but the middleware that operated both the LLM and the formal proof tool.

That middleware was the search tool that a human used to find the solution.

This is not the same as a synthesis of information from the corpus of text.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

hackinthebochs · 2 days ago

A model of a model of X is a model of X, albeit extra lossy.

tovej · 2 days ago

In this case this is not so. The primary model is not a model at all, and the surrogate has bias added to it. It's also missing any way to actually check the internal consistency of statements or otherwise combine information from its corpus, so it fails as a world model.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

wongarsu · 2 days ago

If we focus on base models and ignore the tuning steps after that, then LLMs are "just" a token predictor. But we know that pure statistical models aren't very good at this. After all we tried for decades to get Markov chains to generate text, and it always became a mess after a couple of words. If you tried to come up with the best way to actually predict the next token, a world model seems like an incredibly strong component. If you know what the sentence so far means, and how it relates to the world, human perception of the world and human knowledge, that makes guessing the next word/token much more reliable than just looking at statistical distributions.

The bet OpenAI has made is that if this is the optimal final form, then given enough data and training, gradient descent will eventually build it. And I don't think that's entirely unreasonable, even if we haven't quite reached that point yet. The issues are more in how language is an imperfect description of the world. LLMs seems to be able to navigate the mistakes, contradictions and propaganda with some success, but fail at things like spatial awareness. That's why OpenAI is pushing image models and 3d world models, despite making very little money from them: they are working towards LLMs with more complete world models unchained by language

I'm not sure if they are on the right track, but from a theoretical point I don't see an inherent fault

tovej · 2 days ago

There's plenty of faults in this idea.

First, the subjectivity of language.

1) People only speak or write down information that needs to be added to a base "world model" that a listener or receiver already has. This context is extremely important to any form of communication and is entirely missing when you train a pure language model. The subjective experience required to parse the text is missing.

2) When people produce text, there is always a motive to do so which influences the contents of the text. This subjective information component of producing the text is interpreted no different from any "world model" information.

A world model should be as objective as possible. Using language, the most subjective form of information is a bad fit.

The other issue in this argument is that you're inverting the implication. You say an accurate world model will produce the best word model, but then suddenly this is used to imply that any good word model is a useful world model. This does not compute.

tovej commented on Experts Have World Models. LLMs Have Word Models latent.space/p/adversaria... · Posted by u/aaronng91

aurareturn · 2 days ago

  It cannot, however, synthesize new facts by combining information from this corpus.

Are we sure? Why can't the LLM use tools, run experiments, and create new facts like humans?

tovej · 2 days ago

Then the LLM is not actually modelling the world, but using other tools that do.

The LLM is not the main component in such a system.