s5806533 (u/s5806533)

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

> I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs.

I understand. My point is that it's likely you're a fraction of the overall "home PC" market who are fine purchasing a regular PC/Laptop/Tablet with 16GB+ RAM and multiple cores (because it's so cheap now) if that can support apps that simplify their overhead.

SO while a Raspberry Pi with a NAS that backsup to rsync.net might consume way less power and be more cost efficient, it might require technical overhead that majority of people are unwilling/unable to support/incur.

> Besides, on a principle level, I fail to see how something as simple as e-mail should need (or be allowed to use) something as complicated and resource-hungry as a web browser

From a developer of a product POV, it's much simpler and less of an overhead building a web app that runs in a web browser than a native app that runs on 5 different platforms and architectures.

Essentially the developer of products are outsourcing the headaches of 5 different platform and architecture compatibility to the web browser.

s5806533 · 4 years ago

Again, I have to agree with you. I know I don't represent the majority, and I know that web apps have advantages (at least in this economy, so long as natural resources are cheaper than programmer hours). I don't argue with that. But I still find it a bit sad ;)

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

upofadown · 4 years ago

Signal is a good example here because someone did a usability study. In a usability study involving Signal[1], 21 out of 28 computer science students failed to establish and maintain a secure end to end encrypted connection. The usability of end to end encrypted messaging is a serious issue. We should not kid ourselves into thinking it is a solved issue. For all practical purposes it is the issue.

[1] https://www.ndss-symposium.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/09...

s5806533 · 4 years ago

This is interesting, and it causes me to reevaluate my stance.

At least we have to agree on what we mean when we say that "end-to-end encryption works". I think there are `shades' of "working" if you will -- for instance, I know I mostly ignore when the key material changes in a Signal conversation, and this could be used to fool me. But then we have to talk about attack vectors and what we want to be protected from. I think it's mostly large-scale data collection and analysis rather than targeted attacks (like the CIA might do).

At any rate, thanks for setting me straight. I will read the paper!

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

s5806533 · 4 years ago

Original author here. I have the following desiderata concerning MUA:

* it should be able to work offline (with a dedicated send/receive cycle),

* it should run fine on a Raspberry Pi (out of principle more than anything),

* it should favor plaintext mail,

* it should integrate well with all kinds of workflows and platforms (such as git email),

* it should be a veritable platform for experimentation (i.e., it should be malleable).

I think the case can be made that re-inventing the wheel can sometimes be beneficial. And e-mail to me seems rather 'underexposed' (maybe because most people think it has been a solved problem since at least Gmail).

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

casralad · 4 years ago

I went down a rabbit-hole last year trying out different MUAs and configurations, searching for that perfect setup. I like CLI interfaces and I wanted something where search was not as painful.

It was a nice distraction, then I realized that I only spend a few minutes each week reading email. It's just not a significant part of my workflow, either professionally or personally.

s5806533 · 4 years ago

For me, it's not just about e-mail, but our industry/discipline in general, and the state of e-mail is a good indicator in my opinion, because almost everybody uses it every day, and its implementation complexity is still rather manageable.

Besides, I'm interested in frugal computing and would like to reach a point where I can do my day-to-day stuff on a Raspberry Pi or similar device.

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

upofadown · 4 years ago

I really hope that encrypted email is not a lost cause because that would strongly imply that end to end encrypted messaging is a lost cause in general. If we can overcome the problem in any single case we can overcome the problem generally, even for encrypted email.

This isn't something we can overcome with a purely technical solution. The basic ideas behind end to end encrypted messaging will eventually have to be made part of our culture.

s5806533 · 4 years ago

With respect, I do object.

End-to-end encrypted messaging does work, and Signal (among others) is proof of that.

With e-mail, either (a) you are backwards compatible and sending unencrypted (even by accident) remains a possibility, or (b) you break compatibility, but then it's no longer e-mail. (Signal is an extreme example of the latter: it just uses its own protocol.)

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

buttocks · 4 years ago

The state of MUAs isn't bad/sad unless you apply a pile of unreasonable constraints, as you have. Then, yeah, you can't find anything. Loosen up. "Written in C" is an issue for you? And you use Linux? Just give Evolution another try and give it a little time.

s5806533 · 4 years ago

I find your answer a bit intrusive, to be honest. Let's just stick to the subject matter instead of telling each other how unreasonable or uptight we are, okay?

Yes, "written in C" is an issue for me, for two reasons:

* I really do want to do rapid prototyping and testing hypotheses regarding MUA UX, and C is just not suitable for this end.

* I keep reading about security vulnerabilities in common mail software caused by (among others) buffer overflows.

I don't think that MUAs benefit from C the way system software (such as the kernel) does. And compared to MUAs that run in the browser, I think that the bloat introduced by using Go or Python is still justifiable. Fortunately, there already exists a MUA written in Go (namely aerc).

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

MaknMoreGtnLess · 4 years ago

It seems to me that majority of users don't want to deal with a native application - specially one that:

1. They would have to install, maintain, backup and configure themselves 2. Has a reasonable web application, that, as a major perk, they don't have to install, maintain, backup and configure themselves

Due to the lack of demand for such a product, I am not surprised the existing products arn't polished/well maintained.

s5806533 · 4 years ago

Yes, I totally see your point. Gmail and similar offers are convenient, which means that native software has some very stiff competition and not a lot of adoption.

I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs.

Besides, on a principle level, I fail to see how something as simple as e-mail should need (or be allowed to use) something as complicated and resource-hungry as a web browser.

s5806533 commented on Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? · Posted by u/s5806533

quambene · 4 years ago

I'm still fine with Thunderbird as a MUA (more or less). Using number 1 and 4 as shortcuts to mark an email as "todo" or "urgent". Invitation to appointments (ics file format) can be accepted as well. Integration of contacts is a paint point though.

For email automation I have written a lightweight CLI in Rust [1] which supports MIME and SMTP. I'm currently integrating sendmail's capabilities as well, so that it can be used both as a MUA (message user agent) and MTA (message transfer agent). Cargo's feature flags will hopefully give you a UNIX-like experience (only compile the features you want to use).

In general, I share your sentiment. Email is still the best protocol to contact people outside of your organization. It's a pitty that encrypted email somehow haven't prevailed. The matrix protocol might be better suited for standardized and encrypted communication.

I would argue that every citizen should get a state-issued email address which then can be used for official communication with public authorities (signing and encrypting being a prerequisite). In Germany, you still get so much paper via regular mail. Even the ten-page Covid-19 quarantine order is send by post. It only arrives when quarantine is already over. (Admittedly, you get this order by phone, too, and they are asking for your email address.)

[1] https://github.com/quambene/pigeon-rs

s5806533 · 4 years ago

Thank you for responding, and for providing me with a link to your project. It is good to see that things like this exist in languages other than C. While some people on this thread in fact implied my constraints were unreasonable, I have to say I'm a bit fed up with all the statements on Wikipedia regarding security vulnerabilities of common mail software -- due to buffer overflows.

s5806533 commented on Django: Reformatted code with Black github.com/django/django/... · Posted by u/tams

jessaustin · 4 years ago

Who is using 120 chars?!?!? I can certainly understand the adjustment difficulties...

s5806533 · 4 years ago

moi