Readit News logoReadit News
refenestrator commented on Buying Influence: How China manipulates Facebook and Twitter   nytimes.com/interactive/2... · Posted by u/bale
dang · 4 years ago
I've been trying to persuade baybal2 for years to stop breaking the site guidelines, and have banned and unbanned him over the years, but you're quite wrong in your assumptions—he has a lot of experience in the region and knows a lot. Not only that but people have attacked him unfairly in the past here too (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195898). I also don't believe that he's primarily an ideologue—his comments (at least many of them) are more interesting than that. Whether he was using an obsolete transliteration as flamebait or not is beyond my ability to say, but he's not a native English speaker, so maybe there are some crossed signals here too.

This is a good example of how people jump to conclusions and assume the worst about each other. It's no more ok when you do that than when other users do it, even if you are (or feel you are) part of a minority that gets treated unfairly.

I understand and empathize about how frustrating this is—but lashing out at the very people who are bending over backwards to try to bring some semblance of tolerance and neutrality to an impossible situation is neither nice nor helpful.

I've discussed the lopsided dynamic of these conversations with you many times. The question is how to deal with it. No matter how frustrating it is, it's important not to respond to ignorance by losing your cool, becoming abusive, and so on. When you do that, you're reinforcing the very situation you deplore, and by that you actually make yourself responsible for the status quo. Each of us has a small quantum of energy to contribute, and it's important not to use yours to cause further harm (even when it's for deep reasons).

It's much better to respond to ignorance patiently and with good information, seeking points of connection and opportunities to treat the other person better than they expect and maybe better than they deserve (or you feel they deserve). Then you're investing your quantum in a good way. Also, it's good to remember that we're all ignorant, just about different things, and we all share the same hard-wiring that causes people to project bad things into dark spaces and thus treat each other poorly. If you happen to know more about $topic and thus can see how ignorant others are, that's not because you're better than them, or any different from them in the end. It's an accident of circumstance.

refenestrator · 4 years ago
This has been eating me up all day in case you happen to check in again.

I didn't start posting to whine about being banned a few months ago, I was more concerned about the immediate thread.. but since you brought up my posts, you specifically told me while banning me that civility wasn't "good enough". I was doing this exact recommended pattern of responding patiently and civilly at the moment that you banned me.

Maybe I'm just really oblivious, or a congenitally bad poster, but what would be good enough? It's irrelevant since I'm banned but I always like to self-improve if I can, there must be something I'm missing here. If you're busy or don't see this, no biggie.

Dead Comment

refenestrator commented on Buying Influence: How China manipulates Facebook and Twitter   nytimes.com/interactive/2... · Posted by u/bale
dang · 4 years ago
I wouldn't like to ban the topic. I would like people to treat each other respectfully.

I agree with you that it would be better for HN if Chinese users, and users of Chinese background, could share more of their experiences and observations. I've been arguing that for a long time, as I believe you know. But it's not super cool of you to be making that argument as long as your own contributions to HN are undermining that possibility. We're each responsible for how we individually affect the collective situation, and pointing the finger at others—even if they're behaving badly, and even though they're benefitting from an unfair, lopsided fight—is not helpful.

refenestrator · 4 years ago
That's not good enough.

HN will continue to trend towards having 2-5 content-free "china bad amirite" threads a week with an echo chamber of people who don't know any history of the region saying completely nonsensical things. People who know a little more, or who point out things like "the belt and road initiative isn't a literal road and can't be used to invade someone" will be banned for contributing to flamewar.

For example, in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29655341[1]. You can't be everywhere, there will always 10x comments like that for every 'bad' comment going the other way, and your even-handedness means that 9/10 of them are implicitly judged as fine, acceptable and encouraging intellectual something-or-other.

[1] Check that guy's history, he writes Xi Jinping as Hsi Chunping.. his commitment to ideology is so strong that he wade-giles'd Xi, lol

refenestrator commented on Buying Influence: How China manipulates Facebook and Twitter   nytimes.com/interactive/2... · Posted by u/bale
dang · 4 years ago
If you want to have some actual influence over how we handle these situations, I need you to engage with the detailed explanation I gave above. If you think you know a better way to handle it, I'd like to hear how, but if you don't even try to respond to the argument (and worse, if you just post glib dismissals), that comes across as blaming us for a difficult situation that we actually work hard as hard as we can to try to mitigate. This is not helpful.
refenestrator · 4 years ago
Ok, fine. Food for thought:

You'd probably like to ban the topic entirely, but it'd be weird to have one banned topic and you've said that doesn't work, so that's out.

So what's left, being even-handed, I guess. Except it's a 10-1 ratio, so being even-handed, ban people from both sides leaves you with a 9-0 ratio.. congrats? Even if you're really, really, really trying to be even-handed with regards to content, most people would bias towards handing out 50-50 to feel fair, while 10-1 (or whatever ratio) is actually statistically fair. But that would feel quite biased if you did it! Practically taking a side! So we get a phenomenon where a bad Chinese-adjacent comment (or even a polite one) is super likely to be moderated, but you can't possibly moderate all of the really bad anti-China comments in this thread, there's too many, they rule the day and they establish truth for passersby.

Tech is one of the few industries with a large Chinese minority during this time of rising tension. It would vastly improve the intellectual tone of the site if we had more of them explaining their viewpoint and less of people telling them they're brainwashed.

Failing that, I think the actual real-world answer is to pro-actively push down the repetitive anti-China stories that hit the front page multiple times a week, and then just deny it if anyone asks. They're not intellectually interesting, they're hostile to a significant tech minority, and you don't like the flamewar. Why keep them?

refenestrator commented on Buying Influence: How China manipulates Facebook and Twitter   nytimes.com/interactive/2... · Posted by u/bale
dang · 4 years ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Obviously majority vote does not decide the truth, and ignorant people don't know what they're talking about. And still we have to try to find a way to operate this forum and not allow people to destroy it. Burning the community down doesn't serve the truth in any way.
refenestrator · 4 years ago
Look at this immediate thread above your comment, majority vote did decide the truth about how Chinese people think (they're brainwashed!). Then you scolded someone who got salty about it.
refenestrator commented on Buying Influence: How China manipulates Facebook and Twitter   nytimes.com/interactive/2... · Posted by u/bale
dang · 4 years ago
Please stop "ranting and vomiting" on HN. Not only does it not help, you're reinforcing exactly the situation you're deploring. That damages this community in a deeper way.

HN is a highly international community but it is also highly Western. You can't expect attitudes on topics remote from Western understanding to be either balanced or informed—especially not when the topic is politically and nationally charged. The same would be true of any group of HN's size and regional composition. That's a baseline condition we can't do a thing to change. The question is how we should handle it.

I've expended a huge amount of effort trying to protect this place for minority voices (including about China - here's a list I put together for another user some time ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod). I regularly get accused of being a communist agent and all the rest of it (which expresses the stupidity-of-the-collective in a way that would be scary if it weren't so trivial), and I can tell you for sure that accounts like yours, making the opposing case in a name-calling, ranting way, are a big part of the problem on this. So please stop.

Anyone who wants to represent a minority view to a majority (especially a highly-charged majority) has a special responsibility not to "rant and vomit" in a wake-up-sheeple fashion. If you do that, all you achieve is to recharge the majority and reinforce its righteousness in precisely the places you want to see change. Should you happen to be arguing in favor of the truth (or some aspect of the truth), then you discredit the truth, which hurts everybody. I've been trying to make this point to people for years, on a wide range of topics: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....

Arguably it's not fair that the minority has an additional burden that the majority doesn't have, but it's the way these conversations work, and we can't do a thing to change that either.

refenestrator · 4 years ago
It's not just a civility burden, it's a factual burden.

If somebody came onto HN posting obviously dumb stuff about how American people feel and think, they'd be downvoted, because everyone can see the obvious falsehood.

But when it's Chinese, majority vote of Americans decides the truth! They will tell you the real deal on how things work inside China. And if someone calls them morons, we have you to come in and keep things civil.

refenestrator commented on Writer Liu Cixin on How His Visions of the Future Collide with Reality   wsj.com/articles/writer-l... · Posted by u/gumby
dang · 4 years ago
We're not "banning the non-American point of view" and I don't think you should stoop to such a cheap shot, which is exactly the sort of thing that garden-variety trolls come up with. I've consistently defended the minority viewpoint here [1], not out of political agreement but because I know how difficult their position is, and how most of them are posting in good faith—they're not spies, shills, bots, or agents, they're legit HN users whose background or relationships have naturally led them to their views.

> That's just not an accurate summary of my posting history.

I looked through your most recent 60 comments and counted 9 that weren't on flamewar topics, and that was being generous, because several of the latter were about Bitcoin and religion. It's true that a few were about software - but on the other side, quite a few of the other 51 were blatantly breaking the site guidelines. On balance, your account has clearly been using HN primarily for ideological/political/nationalistic battle. As you know, we ban such accounts. I spend a lot of time replying to people who feel that we don't apply these rules evenhandedly (from all ideological/political/national sides, btw), so I think it's pretty important to actually do so.

[1] I put this list together yesterday for a user who emailed because they were worrying about Chinese spies on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod. I think it makes the situation pretty clear, if anyone has the stamina to slog through it.

refenestrator · 4 years ago
Just so long as we're clear that my "ideological battle" was scattershot takes across a bunch of different topics. I'd hate to be thought of as having a coherent ideology :)
refenestrator commented on Writer Liu Cixin on How His Visions of the Future Collide with Reality   wsj.com/articles/writer-l... · Posted by u/gumby
dang · 4 years ago
I didn't say you were disrespectful. Actually I'm grateful for the amount of restraint I noticed in your posts—especially since you're representing a minority point of view, as we've discussed more than once in the past. All that is fine.

The problem is that that's not enough. Accounts that use HN primarily (exclusively?) for political/ideological/nationalistic arguments are breaking the site guidelines. This site is supposed to be for curious conversation on intellectually gratifying topics, and an account that only uses HN for arguing about $hot-divisive-topic (be it China or any other) is clearly going against that spirit.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

refenestrator · 4 years ago
That's just not an accurate summary of my posting history. I post on a wide range of topics. The last 2 weeks I posted about bitcoin, education policy, tax policy, the British royal family, software architecture and that upvoted comment on the Chappelle thread that you flagged (which was admittedly wading into the muck a bit).

I'm sympathetic to the fact that flame wars about China are too common here, and hey, banning the non-american point of view might end them, circlejerks can only go so far on their own. So maybe you're right, but I wouldn't be super satisfied with that solution.

refenestrator commented on Writer Liu Cixin on How His Visions of the Future Collide with Reality   wsj.com/articles/writer-l... · Posted by u/gumby
dang · 4 years ago
Your current account has an unmistakeable pattern of using HN primarily for ideological and nationalistic battle. I believe you're posting in good faith in the sense that you sincerely hold your views and are not misrepresenting yourself —as some people have complained, and as I'm happy to say in response to the complaints. That's not enough, though. You're clearly not using HN as intended, and you're clearly violating the site guidelines.

We ban accounts that use HN primarily for political/ideological/nationalistic battle because they destroy this community for the thing it is supposed to be for: respectful, curious conversation on topics of intellectual interest. Therefore I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. As you know, they're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

refenestrator · 4 years ago
Was I not respectful?

The shape of global politics is interesting to me. Your call.

Deleted Comment

u/refenestrator

KarmaCake day1697February 13, 2021View Original