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pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
gatlin · 3 months ago
> good tooling

My completely oblique, binary logs disagree. It won because it solved problems companies with money needed solved. There is no indication that it succeeded on merit.

pcpuser · 3 months ago
Ths only issue that non-human readable log storage has caused is the endless nagging on forums. Literally never been an issue besides.
pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
gatlin · 3 months ago
The claim was "shopped around" and if you are going to change people's words do not be surprised when nobody takes your challenge. And preemptively: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
pcpuser · 3 months ago
What does "shopped around" mean? That's not a common or accepted idiom for code. Or not one I've come across anyway.

Also show me evidence of them "shopping around" code. I'll wait.

pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
msgodel · 3 months ago
All of us paying attention saw how the systemd authors shopped their stuff around issue trackers and mailing lists telling everyone "it's just the way it is now." They absolutely did manufacture the situation. They pushed hard enough doing this that it's resulted in multiple large distros being forked by groups of former maintainers.
pcpuser · 3 months ago
Care to share any evidence to back up the tall claim that systemd authors forced their code on anyone?
pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
pona-a · 3 months ago
Replying to some sibling comments asking why anyone wouldn't want to use systemd.

People want to understand their software as well as it's practically possible. It's not an uncommon preference; worse-is-better was quite successful for a reason. As systemd stands, it's an unauditable mess of tightly-coupled components built to handle any conceivable need. These features create new attack vectors: for instance, systemd-machined credential passing system, which can inject arbitrary files such as keys and configs into the guest, also runs on bare metal. And some are just running a musl system that can't even use systemd.

Some might look at the old SysV init scripts through rose-tinted glasses, but I don't think it represents the current state of the community. We have the modern OpenRC with parallel startup, dependency-based initialization, supervision, network management, and cgroups; dinit, which tries to imitate the 80% of systemd features that people use with 20% of its footprint; s6 with its supervision trees; runit that just works; and GNU Shepherd, which gives you an entire Scheme interpreter to configure your system.

Monocultures are bad because they eliminate competitive pressure for good design and create single points of failure that affect everyone. systemd was an excellent addition to the ecosystem in its day, but has become uncomfortably sticky: you can't just choose to replace systemd; you'll need to reimplement udevd, logind, D-Bus activation interfaces, and now userdb, all of which have their own subtle quirks you'll need to replicate. Look to the state of mdev or elogind and you'll see why it's not a sustainable compromise.

pcpuser · 3 months ago
There's so much I disagree with in the beginning but the ending is what actually grinds my gears. You make it sound like systemd manufactured this monoculture somehow. This is also the point I've seen people throw in a comparison to some closed-source org with money to burn and questionable morals.

Systemd was chosen by distros and users across different communities because it solves hard problems better than the others. We can debate about why that is, but the maintainers of Systemd aren't running smear campaigns against other open source projects. Often systemd is the subject of such ire.

They chose to solve hard problems and people adopted it. It's not anything more sinister. It's definitely not an "un-auditable mess". It's written in well formatted C with structure, good tooling, and an open community. You can disagree with the ideology but that's open source for you.

Additionally and away from my point, I believe that Systemd won our because they chose to embrace some complexity to solve really hard problems. Let's not pretend that a modern "init" does only system initialisation by calling shell scripts and then disappearing.

pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
msgodel · 3 months ago
Interestingly enough Poettering works for Microsoft now.
pcpuser · 3 months ago
Times change too. Microsoft does a ton of open source. They maintain an excellent immutable Linux distro. As always the true enemy is dogma and a cult-like adherence to it.
pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
haileys · 3 months ago
This is a sensible move. systemd is a good piece of software, and foundational Linux infrastructure which by now is very widely deployed.

I’ve been doing Linux a long time and my experience is that systemd is much more pleasant to work with than the brittle duct tape and shell script stuff which came before.

pcpuser · 3 months ago
Agreed. I wonder how many people in this thread hating on systemd have actually tried to work with upstream. They are an extremely pleasant and welcoming community who are willing to work with you on the most trivial stuff.

Dead Comment

pcpuser commented on Introducing stronger dependencies on systemd   blogs.gnome.org/adrianvov... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
happymellon · 3 months ago
How were they holding X11 back?

No one wanted to support it, not just Red Hat.

pcpuser · 3 months ago
Nah man you don't get it. They were "monetizing" Wayland. Whatever that means. It's certainly not because X is an insanely old and difficult to maintain codebase with questionable design decisions.

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