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overrun11 commented on No, it doesn't cost Anthropic $5k per Claude Code user   martinalderson.com/posts/... · Posted by u/jnord
mike_hearn · 2 days ago
But there's no such thing as compute cost in the abstract. What exactly is compute cost for AI? Does it include:

• Inference used for training? Modern training pipelines aren't just gradient descent, there's a ton of inference used in them too.

• Gradient descent itself?

• The CPUs and disks storing and managing the datasets?

• The web servers?

• The people paid to swap out failed components at the dc?

Let's say you try and define it to mean the same as unit economics - what does it cost you to add an additional customer vs what they bring in. There's still no way to do this calculation. It's like trying to compute the unit economics of a software company. Sure, if you ignore all the R&D costs of building the software in the first place and all the R&D costs of staying competitive with new versions, then the unit economics look amazing, but there's still plenty of loss-making software startups in the world.

Unit economics are a useful heuristic for businesses where there aren't any meaningful base costs required to stay in the game because they let you think about setup costs separately. Manufacturing toys, private education, farming... lots of businesses where your costs are totally dominated by unit economics. AI isn't like that.

overrun11 · 2 days ago
Gross margins and cost of revenue are well defined accounting terms that apply to any type of business.

> Does it include:

> Inference used for training? Modern training pipelines aren't just gradient descent, there's a ton of inference used in them too.

No because this is training and not inference. Just like how R&D costs for a drug aren't part of COGS either.

> Gradient descent itself?

No

> The CPUs and disks storing and managing the datasets?

Yes

> The web servers?

Yes

> The people paid to swap out failed components at the dc?

Yes to the extent they are swapping for inference and not training. If the same employees do both then the accountants will estimate what percent of their time is dedicated to each and adjust their cost accordingly.

overrun11 commented on No, it doesn't cost Anthropic $5k per Claude Code user   martinalderson.com/posts/... · Posted by u/jnord
mike_hearn · 2 days ago
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when this argument is tried in front of a bankruptcy court. It drives me nuts. Of course there's evidence that they're selling tokens at a loss.

The only thing these companies sell are tokens. That's their entire output. OpenAI is trying to build an ad business but it must be quite small still relative to selling tokens because I've not yet seen a single ad on ChatGPT. It's not like these firms have a huge side business selling Claude-themed baseball caps.

That means the cost of "inference" is all their costs combined. You can't just arbitrarily slice out anything inconvenient and say that's not a part of the cost of generating tokens. The research and training needed to create the models, the salaries of the people who do that, the salaries of the people who build all the serving infrastructure, the loss leader hardcore users - all of it is a part of the cost of generating each token served.

Some people look at the very different prices for serving open weights models and say, see, inference in general is cheap. But those costs are distorted by companies trying to buy mindshare by giving models away for free, and of those, both the top labs keep claiming the Chinese are distilling them like crazy including using many tactics to evade blocks! So apparently the cost of a model like DeepSeek is still partly being subsidized by OpenAI and Anthropic against their will. The cost of those tokens is higher than what's being charged, it's just being shifted onto someone else's books. Nice whilst it lasts, but this situation has been seen many times in the past and eventually people get tired of having costs externalized onto them.

For as long as firms are losing money whilst only selling tokens, that means those tokens are selling at a loss. To not sell tokens at a loss the companies would have to be profitable.

overrun11 · 2 days ago
The article is about compute cost though. By "lose money on inference" I mean the assertion that inference has negative gross margins which a lot of people truly believe. This is important because it's common to reason from this that LLM's are uneconomical and a ticking time bomb where prices will have to be jacked up several orders of magnitude just to cover the compute used for the tokens.
overrun11 commented on No, it doesn't cost Anthropic $5k per Claude Code user   martinalderson.com/posts/... · Posted by u/jnord
bodge5000 · 2 days ago
> A huge number of people are convinced that OpenAI and Anthropic are selling inference tokens at a loss despite the fact that there's no evidence this is true

Theres quite a lot of evidence, no proof I'd agree, but then there's no absolute proof I'm aware to the contrary either, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

The two pieces of evidence I'm aware of is that 1) Anthropic doesn't want their subsidised plans being used outside of CC, which would imply that the money their making off it isn't enough, and 2) last time I checked, API spending is capped at $5000 a month

Like I say, neither of these are proof, you can come up with reasonable arguments against them, but once again the same could be said for evidence on the contrary

overrun11 · 2 days ago
> which would imply that the money their making off it isn't enough

I don't think this logically follows. An unlimited buffet doesn't let you resell all of the food out the backdoor. At some level of usage any fixed price plan becomes unprofitable.

I agree the 5k cap is interesting as evidence although as you said I suspect there are other reasons for it.

As for evidence against it: The Information reported that OpenAI and Anthropic are 30%+ gross margins for the last few years. Sam Altman and Dario have both claimed inference is profitable in various scattered interviews. Other experts seem to generally agree too. A quick search found a tweet from former PyTorch team member Horace He: https://x.com/typedfemale/status/1961197802169798775 and a response to it in agreement from Anish Tondwalkar former researcher at OpenAI and Google Brain.

overrun11 commented on No, it doesn't cost Anthropic $5k per Claude Code user   martinalderson.com/posts/... · Posted by u/jnord
overrun11 · 2 days ago
A huge number of people are convinced that OpenAI and Anthropic are selling inference tokens at a loss despite the fact that there's no evidence this is true and a lot of evidence that it isn't. It's just become a meme uncritically regurgitated.

This sloppy Forbes article has polluted the epistemic environment because now theres a source to point to as "evidence."

So yes this post author's estimation isn't perfect but it is far more rigorous than the original Forbes article which doesn't appear to even understand the difference between Anthropic's API costs and its compute costs.

overrun11 commented on Layoffs at Block   twitter.com/jack/status/2... · Posted by u/mlex
wiseowise · 13 days ago
As someone who comes from a country where it’s very hard to fire people: fuck the companies.

This is the reason why we need the laws in the first place. Many people leave their countries, move their families, buy houses/flats, plan for stability just to be what? Laid off, because investors said so or tripping CEO woke up on the wrong side of the bed? We’re talking about people for fucks sake, workers aren’t Docker pods that are scaled up and down. If they are, they should be compensated for the constant risk they bear.

overrun11 · 13 days ago
> If they are, they should be compensated for the constant risk they bear.

I suspect that they are. US tech workers likely make dramatically more than the country you are from with better worker protections.

overrun11 commented on In 2025, Meta paid an effective federal tax rate of 3.5%   bsky.app/profile/rbreich.... · Posted by u/doener
overrun11 · 14 days ago
To the extent that this is even true it appears to be caused by three things: stock option compensation accounting, R&D deductions and bonus depreciation.

Stock option compensation rules have been a boon because Meta stock has risen 6x in three years. It's unlikely to do that again. My understanding is that this is symmetrical so if the stock trends down we will see an inflated effective tax rate for Meta.

Recent R&D rule changes allowing software engineering salaries for R&D to be written off seem reasonable and were quite popular on Hacker News. Previously these expenses were amortized over five years so this just pulls it forward. Subsequents years will see depressed expenses.

Bonus depreciation is once again just pulling forward legitimate expenses earlier than before. At worst they are just delaying giving the government its taxes and the corporations gain a few points of interest in between.

All of the tax rules used here are open to debate but none seem obviously wrong or nefarious. This is why people like Reich choose to keep things vague. Corporations brazenly stealing from your pocket is much more interesting than the mundane reality.

overrun11 commented on In 2025, Meta paid an effective federal tax rate of 3.5%   bsky.app/profile/rbreich.... · Posted by u/doener
thinkingtoilet · 14 days ago
You're acting like the game is fair. The game is heavily rigged to favor large companies. This is by design.
overrun11 · 14 days ago
Most small businesses are pass through entities in the United States and pay no corporate taxes at all so it's certainly not the case that "The game is heavily rigged to favor large companies."
overrun11 commented on In 2025, Meta paid an effective federal tax rate of 3.5%   bsky.app/profile/rbreich.... · Posted by u/doener
youknownothing · 14 days ago
As someone who ran his own business for over eight years paying close to 30% tax (and is soon going to do it again), I have very mixed feelings about companies using tricks to reduce their tax burden. I mean, I like it when I do it, and I feel justified because there isn't that much that I can claim tax relief from, but seeing a big company paying such low tax rate feels wrong (even though it may be completely legal).

Having said that, there is something to be said of all the tax that is indirectly being generated by Meta: they pay high salaries, and the people receiving those high salaries will pay a significant amount of income tax. Same for all the dividends that they pay out. Maybe just being a big money-mover is their excuse?

overrun11 · 14 days ago
21% has been the highest possible corporate tax rate since 2017. It's not really fair to compare what Meta pays now to what you paid under an entirely different tax regime. You would also pay less in taxes running your business today than you did previously.
overrun11 commented on If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?   english.elpais.com/techno... · Posted by u/PaulHoule
semiquaver · 3 months ago
> taxes still get paid when the individual dies as estate tax

Almost no one in the US pays the estate tax. It only applies to estates over $14MM and most large estates get reorganized into trusts with estate tax avoidance as a primary motive.

overrun11 · 3 months ago
> It only applies to estates over $14MM

Yes this entire conversation is about the ultra wealthy not paying their "fair share". A $14MM exemption is practically irrelevant here.

> most large estates get reorganized into trusts with estate tax avoidance

This isn't so simple. Transfers to a irrevocable trust count against your lifetime 14mm estate and gift tax exemption and a trust in excess of the 14M exemption is subject to gift tax.

Also, this discussion was about "Buy Borrow Die" strategy. Irrevocable trusts don't make much sense in this context because trusts aren't subject to stepped up basis.

overrun11 commented on If AI replaces workers, should it also pay taxes?   english.elpais.com/techno... · Posted by u/PaulHoule
jarpschope · 3 months ago
Indeed that has not happened: https://tinyurl.com/3dutardj
overrun11 · 3 months ago
No that's just a really misleading graph. Most of the gap disappears once you include variable pay like benefits, overtime, bonuses, stock comp etc.

See this explanation and corrected graph: https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/title/economic-synopses-6715/w...

u/overrun11

KarmaCake day394February 10, 2019View Original