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nxc18 commented on China urges its people to struggle. Some say no   economist.com/china/2021/... · Posted by u/tchalla
dalbasal · 4 years ago
It might, depending on who's doing the counting?

I would estimate that they themselves would probably identify with some of these tangping people.

Spending long hours hacking computer systems, dressed in ripped jeans listening to Pink Floyd only looks like work in retrospect. ATT, much of it probably looked like an overindulgent hobby. Same for hanging out and playing guitar.

Diogenes himself left quite a legacy. Pretty direct line from him to stoicism, for example.

Most bummy subcultures don't become the Homebrew Computer Club, Beatles or whatnot. Some do.

nxc18 · 4 years ago
Fair enough, you’ve been very convincing and I think you’ve identified a blind spot of mine. I’ll need to take some time to develop a better understanding of these sub cultural movements. Thank you.
nxc18 commented on China urges its people to struggle. Some say no   economist.com/china/2021/... · Posted by u/tchalla
dalbasal · 4 years ago
"Poorer for the existence of these people," is quite a statement... hard to define too, at least in a value-less way.

I'm skeptical. I feel like there's an instinctive lunge from "these people irritate me" to "this is detrimental to society." In any case, you'd be writing off a fringe that has yielded quite a lot of stuff that I do like... like rock n roll. There is a definite connection there to the old "tune in drop out" mentality. The Beatles were some friends basically rejecting the rat race of their time and day, punk rock and hence most of modern pop, etc. Artists have always been receptive to subversive, diogenes-like ideas.

A lot of hackers from the early microcomputer days were rat race rejectors too.

As you close in on examples, it gets harder to generalize. Dude might be comparing himself to Diogenes, but I'd wager their motivations and ways are pretty different.

Everyone row in the same direction is a bad analogy, IMO, for large societies. We need contrarians.

nxc18 · 4 years ago
Does going on tour and spending long hours hacking computer systems count as lying flat? I’d say they were just contrarians who worked differently, and we’ve got lots of those, working hard, in all parts of society. Entrepreneurs also reject the usual rat race but they do it so they can work harder and have even more responsibility.
nxc18 commented on China urges its people to struggle. Some say no   economist.com/china/2021/... · Posted by u/tchalla
dalbasal · 4 years ago
The first guy quoted wants to be like Diogenes. Diogenes didn't just live in his barrel quitely wanting to be left alone.

He was a subversive figure, criticising and challenging everything: Plato, Alexander, Athenian nobles, sensibilities and social assumptions of his day. He was a famous troublemaker, and that's why we know of him today. I'm sure some Greek dude did really just want to be left alone.. we just don't know his name.

Obviously, I'm not justifying China's paranoid response to any kind of cultural subversions or provocation. Proverbial barrel dwellers are a necessary critique, IMO. The salience of their message can be an important important signal or backpressure.

You could make analogies to the US in the 60s, Japan in the 00s and I'm sure lots of others.

nxc18 · 4 years ago
You can make analogies to the current, active antiwork movement.

I think it is pretty clear that all of society is poorer for the existence of these people. Perhaps China’s ability to keep a lid on it is one small part of their relative economic competitiveness.

nxc18 commented on Tencent deploys facial recognition to detect minors gaming at night   sixthtone.com/news/100791... · Posted by u/jonbaer
eloisius · 4 years ago
This is clearly (at least to the Western sensibilities) a vast government overreach into private life, but can we marvel for a second at a company employing AI to curb addictive behavior towards its product? I definitely don't agree with the government mandates dictating how and when you can play video games, but it is kind of incredible to see a company use AI for something other than encouraging addictive behavior like many US tech companies do.
nxc18 · 4 years ago
When I spend too much time on TikTok (about an hour I think), it slips in a video of a relatable young person saying something like “hold on! You’ve been scrolling for way too long now!…” or alternatively, “I understand it’s easy to keep watching videos, and trust me I’ve been there before, but those videos will still be there tomorrow. So go get some extra sleep, turn your phone off, do yourself that favor and have a great night”.

The experience is probably the digital equivalent of hitting rock bottom, but it does shame me into stopping and is probably good for my mental health overall.

I can’t imagine a western company doing that for their customers. Can you imagine Facebook actively trying to get you to spend less time on their platform? The closest is Netflix “are you still there?” but they’re just trying to save bandwidth.

Edit: https://www.tiktok.com/@tiktoktips/video/6781608404646464774

nxc18 commented on Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)   medium.com/invisible-illn... · Posted by u/notoriousarun
pope_meat · 4 years ago
Your words are like sandpaper. I have no doubt people who are struggling with mental health get aggravated by you.
nxc18 · 4 years ago
Can you please elaborate? I’m trying to avoid causing distress but I don’t see how what I’ve written is anything other than clear, neutral, and respectful (even more than usual for an Internet forum).

(PS: I don’t discuss mechanisms of depression with depressed people; reviews from friends who have recovered are generally positive, I think mainly because I am willing to put up with the emotional abuse and continue to be supportive)

nxc18 commented on Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)   medium.com/invisible-illn... · Posted by u/notoriousarun
johnchristopher · 4 years ago
> Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.

This is in direct contradiction with how you started this thread:

> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.

It is now my belief you are not arguing in good faith.

nxc18 · 4 years ago
Key phrase is “a lot of”.

To break down the full statement:

- “Sometimes I wonder” => this is an explanation/story I’ve thought about; it is one of many models of the world and I have doubts about how applicable it is

- “a lot of” => an amount that is more than negligible but likely less than most (in other words, less than half)

- “in western society” => proposed model/story applies only to a limited western context; implies that this is describing cultural and environmental phenomenon rather than personal failing

- “(I say western because I don’t know enough about others)” => acknowledgment of blind spots and limitations in knowledge generally

- “is due to life just being too comfortable” => core assertion of (theorized) mechanism.

I don’t think there’s any mystery why abuse and trauma create depression; I’m more interested in why people without those problems (like people I know with depression) end up depressed.

I’m not the only one asking these questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/ Of course that study points to a more direct relationship with sedentary lifestyle and isolation, which isn’t an exact fit for the “comfortable western lifestyle” story/model.

nxc18 commented on Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)   medium.com/invisible-illn... · Posted by u/notoriousarun
johnchristopher · 4 years ago
> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.

> This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed.

No, they wouldn't. They would suffer from depression and stop being able to feel joy. That's what depression does to your mind at some point. Put that person in the shoes of someone with cancer, that cancer is not going away.

> Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.

This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

Depression will eat your self-esteem and energy, it doesn't care if have been hit by hardships before or not.

What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

If you ever meet someone who admits their depression to you, please keep your thesis to yourself.

edit:

> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?

nxc18 · 4 years ago
> Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?

Learned helplessness seems pretty closely related to depression and I’m glad you brought it up.

The depression in animals comes from learning that they can’t influence their torment. I just read the book “Grit” and that had good treatment of the matter. The flip side of the coin is that you can learn that you actually can influence your life.

Torment without ability to influence the outcome is obviously going to lead to depression.

I think in humans, there is learned helplessness in that people know that, e.g. going for a run, getting out of bed, taking a shower will make them feel better, but they have somehow learned to believe that it won’t. I suspect for many people, depression starts out mild but becomes worse over time as they learn to not even try to be happy. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/learned-helplessne... I’ve seen it with other interventions - e.g. “why even go on antidepressants, nothing will change”.

Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.

nxc18 commented on Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)   medium.com/invisible-illn... · Posted by u/notoriousarun
johnchristopher · 4 years ago
> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.

> This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed.

No, they wouldn't. They would suffer from depression and stop being able to feel joy. That's what depression does to your mind at some point. Put that person in the shoes of someone with cancer, that cancer is not going away.

> Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.

This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

Depression will eat your self-esteem and energy, it doesn't care if have been hit by hardships before or not.

What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

If you ever meet someone who admits their depression to you, please keep your thesis to yourself.

edit:

> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?

nxc18 · 4 years ago
> What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.

The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.

Saying that society is structured in a way that prevents people from functioning well (I.e. is not tailored to the realities of the human limbic system) is the opposite of saying that it is in depressed people’s heads or that depressed people are spoiled brats.

> > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization. FWIW I also practice gratitude journaling, so I know it’s helpful from my own life. I’ve also overcome binge eating disorder (bad enough to result in morbid obesity), anxiety (social and otherwise), and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).

> That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.

Fun fact, we still don’t actually know what causes depression, and we’re not very good at treating it. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to speculate that the environment might be a contributing factor. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depressio...

> You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

nxc18 commented on Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)   medium.com/invisible-illn... · Posted by u/notoriousarun
johnchristopher · 4 years ago
I encourage you to read more about depression and how to support depressed people. It'll give you a better insight into how depression operates than a single event you experienced.

> It also made me recognize my own capabilities; I was very impressed with my ability to evade danger and survive a dangerous encounter I was completely unprepared for. I’ve never done sport or anything like that so I kind of thought I would be useless if ever attacked, but it turns out I can run and use obstacles in my environment pretty well.

Unfortunately these kind of events don't compare well with bouts of depression. They really are not the same thing.

Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.

With that being said.

> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.

This a confusion between immediate physical dangers (disease, aggression, security in your home) and the stress of our current way of life (competition for work and at work essentially, culture with a heavy accent on individuality, etc.).

Another approach could be: why is there so much depression and anxiety in spite of the comfort level of western society. (maybe western society isn't that comfortable ? or we should work on the definition of comfortable ?).

nxc18 · 4 years ago
I think you’re missing the point.

My thesis, perhaps not well stated: depression and anxiety are linked to a flight/fight, motivation system that isn’t well tuned to a world completely free of any actual risk.

Thesis handily answers your last questions and others.

> Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.

Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. Gratitude journaling is another strategy that is very successful.

u/nxc18

KarmaCake day4063July 22, 2016View Original