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nramanand commented on $70M in 60 Seconds: How Insider Info Helped Someone 28x Their Money   data-and-politics.ghost.i... · Posted by u/pulisse
huijzer · 5 months ago
> Doesn't that mean he was long volatility?

Now that you say it could be that he misspoke indeed.

> Taleb's point seems more to be that he saw a mispricing and traded on it one day

Okay so Taleb was literally an "option trader" as in he traded one option on one day in his life?

> Anyway, it has little to do with what's being said in the article.

How is Taleb, who is an option trader and who has written about options trading for years, not related to an article on an options trade?

nramanand · 5 months ago
I guess because the article is talking about insider trading through the use of options and your point on Taleb is how he traded options like any option trader would.

I should be clear that what you seem to think ties these together, i.e:

> given the volatility, at least one would be a hit in this month.

I don't actually believe to be true. It's not like these options aren't being priced somewhat accurately. There could be insanely high volatility and all that needs to happen is for the price to go up instead of down for none of your options to "hit."

nramanand commented on $70M in 60 Seconds: How Insider Info Helped Someone 28x Their Money   data-and-politics.ghost.i... · Posted by u/pulisse
huijzer · 5 months ago
> And it's bullshit that you can reliably make money of such low probability options. Even if you do, you never put $2.5 million on something with a huge probability of ending in a complete loss, these deep out of the money options are essentially lottery tickets.

Nassim Taleb: "I was effectively short volatility. [...] I would have been harmed by small movements. I was set up to be harmed by small movement and gain if the move continues to something very large." [1]

He also described in one of his books that this strategy works because on most days you will lose money, and most people psychologically don't like that. But you have to ignore that and keep betting until you suddenly make a lot of money.

In case you don't know Taleb and would like to point out that he probably is a fraud, please note that his books and articles have been cited 39946 times according to Google Scholar. See also his Wikipedia [2]. Although I am aware that these are all popularity-based metrics, I unfortunately don't have a better metric available. I invite you to read his books for yourself and make your own decision on his credibility.

> I do buy slightly OTM options and it's barely profitable and even so I think mostly out of pure luck. No way would someone have done this trade without inside info.

Okay if the discussion is whether this particular trade was unlikely I can agree, but your "No way" makes no sense to me.

[1]: https://youtu.be/pavjXIkARS4

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb

nramanand · 5 months ago
Doesn't that mean he was long volatility?

Taleb's point seems more to be that he saw a mispricing and traded on it one day, rather than anything profound regarding option pricing, unless I am missing something. Anyway, it has little to do with what's being said in the article.

nramanand commented on $70M in 60 Seconds: How Insider Info Helped Someone 28x Their Money   data-and-politics.ghost.i... · Posted by u/pulisse
LeafItAlone · 5 months ago
But nearly all of that isn’t going to be actual insider trader, which is pretty narrowly defined: https://www.investor.gov/introduction-investing/investing-ba...

That would be like saying there are 300 million peanut butter and marshmallow fluff sandwiches eaten a year because that’s the total number of sandwiches made in a year. https://www.ezcater.com/lunchrush/office/state-of-the-sandwi...

nramanand · 5 months ago
Isn't it literally all included in this umbrella section?

> Friends, business associates, family members, and other "tippees" of such officers, directors, and employees, who traded the securities after receiving such information;

nramanand commented on $70M in 60 Seconds: How Insider Info Helped Someone 28x Their Money   data-and-politics.ghost.i... · Posted by u/pulisse
LeafItAlone · 5 months ago
>How many physicians have been able to get rich from learning a CEO will be out of commission?

Do you actually have an answer to that? Or are you just throwing out an unanswerable question as some form of “gotcha”?

Now I’m actually curious. There aren’t _that_ many publicly traded companies; only about 4,000 according to Google. A little over 9,000 IPOs since 1980 [0]. The number of companies where the CEO being “out of commission” on such a short timescale would generate “rich” (to me, in this scenario, >$5 million) levels of ROI has to be pretty low up. Probably not even most of the Fortune 100. Then the number of doctors who have that info and are going to act on it is a smaller fraction. Then the three have to match (command that fits + ill CEO + trading physician). Do you think it’s over 10? 25?

0. https://site.warrington.ufl.edu/ritter/files/IPO-Statistics....

nramanand · 5 months ago
I agree with you that it's possibly unanswerable, which is more or less the point. The broader idea is that there are lots of obscure interactions like that one I made up.

You can switch up the doctor and CEO patient for anything else. Bankers, lenders, family friends, former professors ... An unbounded number of humans that can come into contact with useful info to trade on. What do we think are the magical constraints that prevent them from doing so? Corporate etiquette?

The ROI will obviously be a function of what information is passed. But I think that I'm more interested in understanding how often it happens rather than that any one case is "low ROI". It is interesting to consider whether it's the ROI threshold that should philosophically make/not make something insider trading.

nramanand commented on $70M in 60 Seconds: How Insider Info Helped Someone 28x Their Money   data-and-politics.ghost.i... · Posted by u/pulisse
nramanand · 5 months ago
A relevant aside: surely insider trading is happening all the time? There are so many daily market-shifting events involving so many privy parties that it seems inevitable to happen every few minutes (not defending the actions in the article).

How many physicians have been able to get rich from learning a CEO will be out of commission? In that case, I'm not even sure whether it would be considered insider trading.

How does one even go about accusing someone of insider trading? The illegality sounds pretty unenforceable.

u/nramanand

KarmaCake day33July 8, 2022View Original