Is this 2017? We're taking ethics lessons from the CEO of Uber?
Readit Newsmangeletti commented on Standing up for what's right facebook.com/traviskal/po... · Posted by u/smaili
mangeletti commented on Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0 github.com/django/django/... · Posted by u/ReticentMonkey
I used Pyramid for a couple of large projects back when it was Pylons, and around the time of the merger that resulted in Pyramid.
Django has grown up a lot in the last several years. It used to be really hard to use a different templating language, and I personally really dislike Django's templating language. That was the biggest turn off for me every time I looked into Django. If it had been pluggable earlier, this probably would've changed the calculation for me.
I've always thought of Pyramid as the ideal framework, conceptually. It feels like you're writing Python, not Pyramid, which is GREAT. Pyramid only shows up when you say "OK, I have my Python stuff; I need to make this show up in the web browser now." It is entirely unobtrusive. All frameworks should strive for that.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of frameworks take the opposite approach. Django at least used to be an example of that by forcing DTL (is this the abbreviation for "Django Templating Language"?) down everyone's throat, among other things.
I've also been very impressed by Chris McDonough and the rest of the Pyramid team. They're extremely helpful in IRC, they keep up the great work even after spending years as a small/niche framework, and their code is very clean and well-tested, not obnoxious or overcomplicated. It's a tight, consistent framework that stays out of the way and is just there to serve the developer, not to force him/her to comply. It is so everything a framework should be and so everything most frameworks aren't that I can't help but love it.
I haven't done a major Python-based web project for many years (have one in progress, porting a Rails-based site to a Mezzanine-based site, but work on it only rarely), so I'm sure some of this is outdated.
Thanks for the reply.
What makes Pyramid better for you than e.g., Falcon?
From your comment, it sounds like a lot of the value you've gleaned from Pyramid is based on the framework staying out of your way, so why not use something 5x faster that does the same thing? Does Pyramid provide some unmatched abstractions? (I'm coming from a position of no true experience in Pyramid)
mangeletti commented on Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0 github.com/django/django/... · Posted by u/ReticentMonkey
I would bet my horse on https://trypyramid.com/ when it comes to API consistency, I've updated my applications from 0.9 to 1.7 and that was a breeze. Over the years it was exceptionally great experience.
I always expected Pyramid to offer some performance benefits over Django, given the origins (taking the best of framework X and Y), esp given that you can choose your own ORM (e.g., SQLAlchemy), etc.
However, once you're out of the unrealistic scenarios (single query benchmarks, etc.), it doesn't do that well[1]. It's not prohibitively slow, but to make the jump from something as well documented and with as large a community as Django, most developers would need to see major gains in one or more areas; performance, docs, community, coding efficiency, etc.
Pyramid doesn't offer these gains. It only makes promises about maintainability, which are hard to verify, unless you personally know somebody that you trust as a skilled developer, and who has worked on a sufficiently large enough project in Pyramid to make such claims... it's easy to see how this creates a hole that Pyramid has to dig itself out of.
Also, Pyramid still talks about "supporting your decisions", like Jinja2, etc., as if that's a problem people are still dealing with. Django supports Jinja2 even in the admin now, let alone being able to use whatever you want elsewhere. As a side note, I don't see many Python developers wanting to use anything other than Django templates (for simplicity and separation of concerns) or Jinja2 (for speed and flexibility) these days.
If the argument, in response to the aforementioned difficulty in verifying claims about maintainability, is "well, it's up to you; Pyramid stays out of the way", then the immediate response is that you're better off using Flask or Falcon; the former if you need third-party tools, and the latter if you need maximum raw speed, but still want Python. Both of those frameworks will drastically outperform Pyramid and stay out of your way.
IOW, I don't think Pyramid fills any reasonably sized and easily understood market gap.
1. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r13&hw=...
mangeletti commented on Removing Python 2.x support from Django for version 2.0 github.com/django/django/... · Posted by u/ReticentMonkey
Pyramid is great, but for years they had a ridiculous Iron Maiden- heavy metal like branding [0] which make it hard to sell it in the corporate world. I'm glad they evolved on this point.
[0] http://keitheis.github.io/use-pyramid-like-a-pro/?full#Cover
I agree, but you know what; I think the new branding is worse :(
It's a shame, because I've wanted to try Pyramid since I watched their talk at PyCon 2011, but the branding (including the new 99 Designs looking logo / theme) has always made me think, "This will never really take off."
Deleted Comment
mangeletti commented on One in five of us may 'hear' flashes of light theguardian.com/science/2... · Posted by u/jonbaer
Get ready for every unique snowflake you know to claim that they have this new, special power :)
Is that not an extended variation of the https://cachethq.io logo?
I don't think it can really be considered copying another company when both companies' logos are basically a Font Awesome icon[1,2].
No offense to either company; their logos are pragmatic.
Deleted Comment
Down for me in Jupiter, FL.