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jspdown commented on Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity   metr.org/blog/2025-07-10-... · Posted by u/dheerajvs
narush · 2 months ago
Hey Simon -- thanks for the detailed read of the paper - I'm a big fan of your OS projects!

Noting a few important points here:

1. Some prior studies that find speedup do so with developers that have similar (or less!) experience with the tools they use. In other words, the "steep learning curve" theory doesn't differentially explain our results vs. other results.

2. Prior to the study, 90+% of developers had reasonable experience prompting LLMs. Before we found slowdown, this was the only concern that most external reviewers had about experience was about prompting -- as prompting was considered the primary skill. In general, the standard wisdom was/is Cursor is very easy to pick up if you're used to VSCode, which most developers used prior to the study.

3. Imagine all these developers had a TON of AI experience. One thing this might do is make them worse programmers when not using AI (relatable, at least for me), which in turn would raise the speedup we find (but not because AI was better, but just because with AI is much worse). In other words, we're sorta in between a rock and a hard place here -- it's just plain hard to figure out what the right baseline should be!

4. We shared information on developer prior experience with expert forecasters. Even with this information, forecasters were still dramatically over-optimistic about speedup.

5. As you say, it's totally possible that there is a long-tail of skills to using these tools -- things you only pick up and realize after hundreds of hours of usage. Our study doesn't really speak to this. I'd be excited for future literature to explore this more.

In general, these results being surprising makes it easy to read the paper, find one factor that resonates, and conclude "ah, this one factor probably just explains slowdown." My guess: there is no one factor -- there's a bunch of factors that contribute to this result -- at least 5 seem likely, and at least 9 we can't rule out (see the factors table on page 11).

I'll also note that one really important takeaway -- that developer self-reports after using AI are overoptimistic to the point of being on the wrong side of speedup/slowdown -- isn't a function of which tool they use. The need for robust, on-the-ground measurements to accurately judge productivity gains is a key takeaway here for me!

(You can see a lot more detail in section C.2.7 of the paper ("Below-average use of AI tools") -- where we explore the points here in more detail.)

jspdown · 2 months ago
With today's state of LLMs and Agents, it's still not good for all the tasks. It took me couple of weeks before being able to correctly adjust on what I can ask and what I can expect. As a result, I don't use Claude Code for everything and I think I'm able to better pick the right task and the right size of task to give it. These adjustment depends on what you are doing, the complexity of and the maturity of the project at play.

Very often, I have entire tasks that I can't offload to the Agent. I won't say I'm 20x more productive, it's probably more in the range of 15% to 20% (but I can't measure that obviously).

jspdown commented on Opencode: AI coding agent, built for the terminal   github.com/sst/opencode... · Posted by u/indigodaddy
JeremyNT · 2 months ago
I've settled on aider and vim.

The best experience I've had is to completely divorce editing from vibe coding. Ask the chatbot to do something, then review the results as if a junior developer submitted them - that means diffs and opening files in the editor.

Fundamentally I think these are really distinct operations. I understand why the kitchen sink IDEs jam the genAI tools into their UIs, but I don't think it's necessarily important to link the two functions.

jspdown · 2 months ago
I share the same experience. Looking at diffs inside a terminal is as helpful as looking at diffs inside GitHub. I need code navigation to fully understand the impact of a code change or just the code base.

I exclusively use Claude Code these days, and I don't remember having accepted the result of a prompt a single time on the first shot. I always have to fix some stuff here and there, improve some tests or comments or even make the code more readable. Being in an IDE is a must for me, and I don't see how this could change.

jspdown commented on Denmark to raise retirement age to 70   telegraph.co.uk/world-new... · Posted by u/wslh
tikhonj · 3 months ago
Sure, but modern societies have solved the problem of needing to work until you're 70. Working until 65 or whatever still sucks, but 5 years is 5 years is not nothing.
jspdown · 3 months ago
It's the 5 best years that you have left to live. It's not nothing indeed.
jspdown commented on Reinvent the Wheel   endler.dev/2025/reinvent-... · Posted by u/zdw
basket_horse · 3 months ago
I don't disagree, and it really depends on the complexity of what you are trying to do. If it's a simple util function, it makes total sense. But for complicated solutions where open source alternatives already exist, its a hard argument to spend your time reinventing it unless just for learning purposes.
jspdown · 3 months ago
Yes exactly, each situation is different.

As a team you constantly need to assess whether a dependency should be brought in or of a re-implementation is not better.

Sometimes, the re-implementation is so specific to you actual problem that maintenance becomes almost free. A generic solution always open more doors to problems and require more effort to maintain.

For a rich client web application, you need a really good reason not to bring an external dependency such as React.

jspdown commented on Reinvent the Wheel   endler.dev/2025/reinvent-... · Posted by u/zdw
basket_horse · 3 months ago
Sure, making a new wheel is fine if you're never actually going to use it. But if you're actually being serious, remember that you'll have to maintain it.
jspdown · 3 months ago
There's no free meal and adding a dependency is far from being free. Each dependency you add needs to be carefully reviewed, each of its update as well. Though, apparently many people just YOLO this part.
jspdown commented on Jules: An asynchronous coding agent   jules.google/... · Posted by u/travisennis
jspdown · 3 months ago
> Jules creates a PR of the changes. Approve the PR, merge it to your branch, and publish it on GitHub.

Then, who is testing the change? Even for a dependency update with a good test coverage, I would still test the change. What takes time when uploading dependencies is not the number of line typed but the time it takes to review the new version and test the output.

I'm worried that agent like that will promote bad practice.

jspdown commented on Generative AI is not replacing jobs or hurting wages at all, say economists   theregister.com/2025/04/2... · Posted by u/pseudolus
patapong · 4 months ago
I agree! People will become more productive, meaning fewer people can do more work. That said, I hope this does not result in the production of evermore things at the cost of nature!

I think we are at a crossroads as to what this will result in, however. In one case, the benefits will accrue at the top, with corporations earning greater profits while employing less people, leaving a large part of the population without jobs.

In the second case, we manage to capture these benefits, and confer them not just on the corporations but also the public good. People could work less, leaving more time for community enhancing activities. There are also many areas where society is currently underserved which could benefit from freed up workforce, such as schooling, elderly care, house building and maintenance etc etc.

I hope we can work toward the latter rather than the former.

jspdown · 4 months ago
> That said, I hope this does not result in the production of evermore things at the cost of nature!

It will for sure! Just today the impact is collosal.

As an example, people used to read technical documentation, now, they ask LLMs. Which replaces a simple static file by 50k matrix multiplication.

jspdown commented on Generative AI is not replacing jobs or hurting wages at all, say economists   theregister.com/2025/04/2... · Posted by u/pseudolus
paulsutter · 4 months ago
Why is this a worry? Sounds wonderful
jspdown · 4 months ago
I'm a bit worried about the social impacts.

When a sector collapses and become irrelevant, all its workers no longer need to be employed. Some will no longer have any useful qualifications and won't be able to find another job. They will have to go back to training and find a different activity.

It's fine if it's an isolated event. Much worse when the event is repeated in many sectors almost simultaneously.

jspdown commented on The hidden cost of AI coding   terriblesoftware.org/2025... · Posted by u/Sharpie4679
godelski · 4 months ago
I think you're robbing yourself.

Of course, it all depends how you use the LLM. While the same can be true for StackOverflow, the LLMs just scale the issues up.

  > The rest is boiler plate, cargo-culted, Dockerfile, build system and bash environment variable passing circle of hell that I really could care less about.
Except you do care. It's why you're frustrated and annoyed. And good!!! That feeling is because what you're describing requires solving. If something is routine, automate it. But it's really not good to automate in a statistical way, especially when that statistical tool is optimized for human preference. Because remember that also means mistakes are optimized to be missed by humans.[0]

With expertise in anything, I'm sorry, but you also got to do the shit work. To be a great musician you gotta practice boring scales. It's true even if you just want to be a sub par one.

But a little grumpy is good. It drives you to fix things, and frankly, that's our job. The things that are annoying and creating friction don't need be repeated over and over, they need alternative solutions. The scripts you build are valuable. The "useless" knowledge you gain isn't so useless. Those little details add up without you knowing and make you better.

That undocumented code makes you frustrated and reminds you to document your own. You don't want to be a hypocrite. The author of the thing you're using probably thought the same thing: "No one is gonna use this garbage, I'm not going to waste my time documenting it". Yet here we are. Over and over again yet we don't learn the lesson.

I'm not gonna deny there's assholes. There are. But even assholes teach you. At worst, they teach you how not to act.

And some people are you telling you to RTM and not RTFM. Sure, it has lots of extra information in it that you don't need to get your specific job done, but have you also considered that it has lots of extra information in it? The person that wrote it clearly thought the context was important. Maybe it isn't. In that case, you learned a lesson in how not to write documentation!

What I'm getting at is that there's a lot of learning done all over the place. Trying to take out all the work and only have "the fun" is harming yourself and has a large potential to make less time for the fun stuff[0]. I'd be surprised if I'm alone in this, but a lot of stuff I enjoy now was stuff that originally frustrated me. IME this is pretty common! It's true for every person I know. Similarly, it's also true for things I learned that I thought I'd never use again. It always has a way of coming back.

I'm not going to pretend it's all fun and games. I'm explicitly saying it's not. But I'm confident in the long run it's better. Despite the lack of accuracy, I use LLMs (and Google, and even the TFM) like I would a solution guide the homework problems when I was in school. Try first, then consult. The struggle is an investment in your future. It sucks, but if all the best things in life were easy then we'd all have them. I'm just trying to convince you that it pays off.

I'm completely aware this is all context dependent. There's a time and place for everything. But given the percentages you mention (even taken as exaggeration), something sounds wrong. It's hard to suggest specific solutions without details but I'd be surprised if there weren't better and more rewarding solutions than having the LLM do it for you

[0] That's the big danger and what drives distrust in them. Because you need to work extra hard to find mistakes, increasing workload, not decreasing, because debugging is most of the job!

jspdown · 4 months ago
I share the same opinion.

While it looks like a productivity boost, there's a clear price to pay. The more you use it, the less you learn and the less you are able to assess quality.

u/jspdown

KarmaCake day160June 23, 2014
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