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htechenjoyer commented on Everyone hates the electronic medical record   logicmag.io/policy/why-ev... · Posted by u/billybuckwheat
pif · 2 years ago
> It's one of many instances where there's a valid reason for the technology to be implemented as such but since doctors usually aren't thinking about the technology or security aspects they just perceive it as annoying.

No, there is never a good reason to prevent a professional from doing his job. If the user finds it annoying, it is annoying: that's it!

Learn to work for the user rather than against the user, and you'll become a better developer.

htechenjoyer · 2 years ago
That's simply not true. The user is not the only stakeholder. The example I gave opens up the hospital to fines from the government and in the worst case scenario a massive legal judgement from the patient who's data was breached by a physician leaving his workstation with a patient record opened and it was compromised by a malicious actor.

edit: in any case this is very likely a security configuration by the hospital infosec team, not the developer of the EMR.

htechenjoyer commented on Everyone hates the electronic medical record   logicmag.io/policy/why-ev... · Posted by u/billybuckwheat
htechenjoyer · 2 years ago
Disclaimer: The electronic health record system in the united states is a mess. A monolithic monstrosity lacking interoperability, touching the most sensitive data, and leading to the worst possible outcomes if errors occur.

That being said, as someone that works in healthcare technology, has done clinical shadowing of physicians, worked the admin side of healthcare providers, worked technology for payers and providers, and has multiple close relationships with front line healthcare workers: I think this article missed the mark in several places. I've interacted enough with nurses and doctors to recognize rants about electronic health records and how they come from a valid place but use many poor examples.

1. Theres a weird implicit assumption throughout the entire essay that EHR implementations are uniquely bad in introducing friction and errors to the medical system. Take the example of his electronic orders to the lab and lamenting how in the old days that would be a simple note to lab on paper and that was somehow inherently better. As if errors around misreading notes or misplacing them didn't occur beforehand.

2. "There's an illusion that technology automates work - instead it only changes it". This is a faulty premise. There is a lot of work that has been completely automated away within healthcare not just changed. EHR enabled patient monitoring comes to mind. You can remotely capture and store vital signs for patients instead of rounding to each room and writing them down. With staffing shortages for all jobs in healthcare we would probably be in a much worse place if we were still relying on paper.

3. "There is also more clinical work. Increasing corporatization of medicine and staff shortages have increased the volume of patient care for each healthcare worker, accelerated since the pandemic". There is definitely blame on admin for some of this but there is also artificial limiting of the number of new doctors each year by the AMA and it's lobbying. If there were more medical professionals I suspect that much of the "burnout from EHR's" would decrease. Add in the authors vitriol for a profit maximization even though profit of a health system allows them to hire more and pay more to compete with other industries for workers.

4. The author does not understand why the technology is implemented in a specific way. He is one stakeholder - the doctor and while an important one is not the only one that needs the data generated by a clinical interaction. Example: his complaint for there being multiple lab types for HIV in a drop down for ordering. This is specifically to reduce ambiguity and resulting medical errors, allows for more precise audit and reviewing of a patient's history, and carries a different cost for billing. He also blames EHR's for issues with different implementations of UI and workflows between hospitals even though most times hospitals are to blame for adding their own customizations.

While the author brings up good points he has an explicit bias against the current system even when it doesn't deserve the treatment he gives it. Most of the piece is generated more from a hatred of capitalism and a desire to refute the libertarian paternalism that he talks about rather than a fair and even treatment of the problem with the electronic health record system in the United States.

htechenjoyer commented on Everyone hates the electronic medical record   logicmag.io/policy/why-ev... · Posted by u/billybuckwheat
captaincraven · 2 years ago
Disclaimer: Worked at Epic for > 3 years.

EHR’s have all the problems of enterprise software, plus some. At the end of the day, the software is made for the people who pay for it. This isn’t the patients, or the providers. It’s the admin, billing, and bureaucracy layer who get to make all the decisions. It’s not surprising that these people don’t prioritize good software.

EMR’s need to do more, but the root of the problem is systemic.

htechenjoyer · 2 years ago
I think they need to do less. Part of the problem is they are trying to be everything for everyone. A hospital is an aggregation of what is really several different businesses into one - and they all have to use the same monolithic application. Each medical speciality has their own unique data and technology needs, as does each specific unit (ie different ICUs for surgery, burns, etc), then add pharmacy, labs, admin, etc.

If the priority is billing, then focus on aggregating and correlating billing data, expose an API for consumption with other systems being used that may or may not be from the same EMR company.

I do agree that there is an issue with stakeholder bias towards admin. Every pet project from admin results in a bolt-on fix to the EMR configuration bloating clinical processes. They are the ones that make the rules and decisions and are often disconnected from both technology and clinical expertise which is perhaps the worst combination for health care technology decisions.

htechenjoyer commented on Everyone hates the electronic medical record   logicmag.io/policy/why-ev... · Posted by u/billybuckwheat
thaumasiotes · 2 years ago
Private industry is already worse than the older system of keeping notes with pen and paper. (Source: my mother operated her own medical practice and applied for a government subsidy to switch over to electronic medical records, then complained about how it reduced the functioning of her practice.)
htechenjoyer · 2 years ago
Is it? There's trade-offs of course with everything. There's certainly many aspects in which a medical practice only using pen and paper is worse. How about transferring records to other institutions? Or taking your work home with you? Do you want to lug boxes of records home which may get lost (HIPAA breach) so that you can finish up your notes at home? What about making copies for a patients right to access? What about auditing changes or access to the record to enforce data security, integrity, and compliance?

What's the timeline of evaluation of reducing the functioning of her practice? If it was just a recent change then I would expect growing pains. I have many close personal relationships with healthcare workers and when their electronic health record system is down, having to use pen and paper leads to drastically worse functioning within their job. So the same claim but in the opposite direction. The reality is doing something you're not used to is harder.

htechenjoyer commented on Everyone hates the electronic medical record   logicmag.io/policy/why-ev... · Posted by u/billybuckwheat
mjfl · 2 years ago
Idk this reads like apologetics for the software industry, which I know people will be more sympathetic to here. But. I know doctors that tell me their EMR log them out after a minute of inactivity and take 3 minutes to login. This can happen multiple times during a patient visit and are totally disruptive. I've heard that it's even begun to affect the throughput of the hospital. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of doctors complaints.
htechenjoyer · 2 years ago
This is entirely a data security issue. Depending on the environment, without a logout this is seriously risking a HIPAA violation. Say you're in the hospital and your doctor pulls up your record on a computer in the hallway after they've done rounds on you to put in their observations and notes. However just as he's finishing, his pager goes off, he's off to an emergency, and he forgets to log off.

How many minutes are you okay with your medical record being open for inspection by anyone that walks by? Other medical staff, admin staff, janitorial staff, other patients getting steps in, other patient's families?

It's one of many instances where there's a valid reason for the technology to be implemented as such but since doctors usually aren't thinking about the technology or security aspects they just perceive it as annoying.

u/htechenjoyer

KarmaCake day5December 10, 2023View Original