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hn492912 commented on We are shutting down Ondsel   ondsel.com/blog/goodbye/... · Posted by u/pabs3
nubinetwork · 9 months ago
Kicad isn't a simulator, it's a pcb designer.
hn492912 commented on We are shutting down Ondsel   ondsel.com/blog/goodbye/... · Posted by u/pabs3
shiroiushi · 9 months ago
>KiCad is faster, absolutely not better.

Not what I've heard, and CERN seems to think it's good enough for their particle colliders.

>No open source tooling can even remotely compare in ASIC implementation flow or FPGA implementation.

Yes, FPGA tools are a very different matter. I do wonder if this is really lock-in from vendors more than any preference by users, but still, sufficiently motivated users could reverse-engineer things to try to make a single open-source toolset that works with all vendors' FPGAs. Of course, the feasibility of this is questionable, but we've seen really impressive reverse-engineering efforts in other places in FOSS. Just look at how futile it is for YouTube to try to prevent people from downloading their videos.

hn492912 · 9 months ago
Large institutions like CERN run everything. But the advanced stuff is definitely not on KiCAD. It doesn't have support for the right simulation models.

https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/cern-selects-cadence-service...

"The CERN physics department is deploying the Cadence analog and digital end-to-end solutions as well as the Cadence verification and Allegro PCB solutions throughout the support of its CERN IT department."

hn492912 commented on We are shutting down Ondsel   ondsel.com/blog/goodbye/... · Posted by u/pabs3
shiroiushi · 9 months ago
> electronic design engineers rarely have the software skills required to develop EDA software.

You could say that about many other fields too, but then why do we have great tools like Blender, Krita, Audacity, etc.? Artists and musicians have great software skills, but electronics engineers don't? There's always been a huge overlap between EE and CS degrees, with "computer engineering" degrees coming about as a merger of the two fields decades ago, so I find this statement hard to believe.

hn492912 · 9 months ago
That's a very interesting question and I'm not really sure what the answer is in general but I can answer for myself.

I'm an EE. I can code. I think I'm pretty good at it. But there's a reason I didn't major in CS, I don't enjoy it all that much and I don't do it as a hobby either.

If you believe that those who contribute to FOSS is a small percentage, then I think for non-SW folks you're looking at a small percentage of a small percentage, which means sparingly few contributors which means sparingly few FOSS EDA tools.

hn492912 commented on We are shutting down Ondsel   ondsel.com/blog/goodbye/... · Posted by u/pabs3
shiroiushi · 9 months ago
Unfortunately, I've noticed that non-SW engineers frequently turn their noses up at open-source solutions, and really the entire concept of open-source software, and seem to prefer proprietary solutions, the more expensive the better. I've seen this in the software world too, with embedded systems engineers, though Linux, gcc, etc. has made huge inroads here, though it took decades, and mainly came from the Linux adherents pushing downwards into the embedded space from the desktop space, not from any interest by the existing engineers in the embedded space.

Just look, for instance, at FPGAs: almost all the tooling is proprietary, very expensive, and very buggy too. Or look at PCB design: Altium seems to be the standard here still, despite Kicad having made huge advances and by most accounts being as good or even better. It took decades (Kicad started in 1992) for the FOSS alternatives here to really catch on much, and only really because PCBs became cheap enough for hobbyists to design and construct their own (mainly because of Chinese PCB companies), and because CERN contributed some resources.

I'm not sure what the deal is with engineers hating collaboratively-developed and freely-available software, but it's a real thing in my experience. It's like someone told them that FOSS is "socialism" and they just reflexively dismiss or hate it.

hn492912 · 9 months ago
For non-SW engineers, like myself, software is a means, not an end, and FOSS or not FOSS is irrelevant.

To get a EDA tool to a useable condition, and debugged to the point where it is reliable enough to actually use, is just a ton of work. As someone who wants to design circuits, why should I do that work? How will it help me design more circuits? I understand why beginners and casual users don't like them because the EDA tools do have a huge learning curve, but once you're there, they are very productive.

For professional engineers the software license is not really a significant barrier. Compared to the cost of labor, materials and equipment it's basically a noop.

u/hn492912

KarmaCake day11November 18, 2024View Original