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expatjapan121 commented on The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan   tokyodev.com/articles/the... · Posted by u/pwim
germandiago · 10 months ago
If I tell you tgis it is because I have japanese friends who live outside of Japan, who are more open than the average and it is them who tell me: a japanese will not tell you what they are thinking and will not project "negativity" on you.

Said in another way: they will just tell you the positive stuff and will discard negative things. Why? Because for them "projecting negativity" is something plain bad and wrong. This is the reason, for example, why it is almost impossiboe to see a japanese crying in public. That is projecting negativity. They will not go and tell you: "man, how did you comb today you look crazy", even if it is what they are thinking. And like this, millions of things. So maybe you think they are polite or even they like you just bc u dnt get any of this, but observe further: they put distance, they do not make you into their groups except for really formal appointments (business, work), etc. No, it is not easy to get integrated in Japan. It is just not easy.

That they are amazingly polite when dealing with you does not mean you are fully integrated at all.

It means they are polite. Nothing else. If you do not believe me, try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese. It is very likely, to say it plainly, that you are not just accepted as one more in their circles. For business yes, for close friendship, I doubt it in most cases though this varies a bit in bigger places.

It is really tough.

expatjapan121 · 10 months ago
> try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese.

I don't need to try to do this, close friendships with Japanese people and integration in social circles where I'm the only non-Japanese has not been hard. The strategy is just not to have your own preconception of outsiderness.

I see many that complain about difficulty integrating similar to your comments, blaming it on something about the Japanese people. But they themselves didn't make the effort to learn the language or make friends in a more casual way, so it just seems like a responsibility deflection. Maybe this is what you mean by it being really tough, but it seems a pretty normal amount of effort when immigrating to me. Pushing this narrative that it's really hard (some of the language even made it sound like implying impossible) doesn't help make it easier since then people get this preconception of being an outsider, and yes that will do a good job of preventing integration.

expatjapan121 commented on The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan   tokyodev.com/articles/the... · Posted by u/pwim
germandiago · 10 months ago
I think you got wrong what I said. I said that becoming part of a group of japanese people where japanese people accept you is more difficult than in other countries.

That is different from going around and just interacting with them, which I found smooth and polite.

If you think that interacting eith japanese at work or shops or restaurants is the same as becoming part of them, well, that is ok, you seem to live there. I think it is more difficult than in other countrues and by this I am not meaning they are bad.

For example, far fewer japanese speak english than other developed countries, which is a trait of ehat they care about.

Also, when working or interacting with japanese myself, I found they follow rules really strictly compared to the "flexibility mindset" that westerners tend to have when solving problems.

They will not go and correct their bosses if they see mistakes because "they will notice themselves". So there is a lot of room to make innocent mistakes when interacting with them and many, face it, are not even that interested beyond a trivial and polite conversation and I am not meaning bad. Every culture has their priorities and taste.

expatjapan121 · 10 months ago
> For example, far fewer japanese speak english than other developed countries

My point was specifically about decoupling culture from language. And notably you didn't clarify about the Romanian who I guess must have spoke Spanish.

Sorry but there are many eastern countries that are considered "developed" while the English speaking population is nothing compared to Western countries like in the Europe. Of course I wish they taught if better to open global opportunities but that doesn't mean anything in terms of culture. It's a language issue and luckily AI is much better at dealing with them than culture.

expatjapan121 commented on The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan   tokyodev.com/articles/the... · Posted by u/pwim
germandiago · 10 months ago
I am not saying your experience must be the same.

According to the three japanese people in my group here and some other feedback from people living there before, same as you I guess, and they speak japanese quite ok, our conclusion is that being one more is not as easy as in other countries.

I say this from the strictest respect to japanese. I like them, I like their culture.

If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them. A japanese would rarely tell you that. And if someone did, it is likely to do it in an indirect way, as most asians do. Japanese are in the extreme of that polite behavior.

expatjapan121 · 10 months ago
> If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them.

Since this makes a strong assumption on how people "think", I really don't know how to respond to this.

> If you live there you must know perfectly

No I don't.

expatjapan121 commented on The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan   tokyodev.com/articles/the... · Posted by u/pwim
Aeolun · 10 months ago
I think the OP is correct, though probably not in the way they mean.

I love living in Japan, but I’ll never be able to adopt that mindset, or be able to eat all those disgusting fishes they love.

That’s fine. A lot of Japanese people think it’s valuable to have different perspectives too, even if they could never convince themselves that it’s ok to just walk up to someone and ask them what their problem is.

expatjapan121 · 10 months ago
IIUC you are saying OP is correct in that culture exists in the world. And you are affirming that Japanese people believe this too and are fine with people that don't eat "disgusting fishes", like me (cooked I can't do, sashimi I'm fine).

So the sentiment that somehow Japanese are incompatible for culture reasons, which is the message I got from the thread I replied to, is not correct in your opinion too, right?

expatjapan121 commented on The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan   tokyodev.com/articles/the... · Posted by u/pwim
germandiago · 10 months ago
I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish.

In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out.

And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreigners entering Spain, in general terms, and foreigners entering in Japan.

I love Japan, but I am not sure it would be a particularly comfortable place to live since Japanese have a very traditional culture and habits, so being part of the group is not an easy task. In fact, I think you will never be a part of the group as I would understand it in spanish terms, when, for example, an argentinian or a romanian becomes in Spain over time.

The japanese culture is one one of the cultures I admire the most in many aspects: disciplined, orderly... but one thing is that and a very different thing is living there and becoming fully integrated. I think that's tough.

expatjapan121 · 10 months ago
> if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. > And anyway, you will never be a japanese.

I think you answered yourself that if you _can_ speak Japanese, things are different. The reality is that if you can speak Japanese, it's quite easy to be well integrated with the people. In your example, I don't know if the Romanian learned Spanish or everyone is speaking English but there is likely a common language. Making the reason "traditional culture and habits" and just not a lack of a shared language seems wrong to me, at least I feel quite integrated. Please stop telling people "they will never be Japanese" since it's blatantly wrong.

u/expatjapan121

KarmaCake day5November 7, 2024View Original