Readit NewsThose types of ideas and projects have no need for the approval of authority. They are their own authority.
If a person in authority ends such a project or idea then the engineering culture at that organization is so completely broken the best path is to leave.
Edit: I wish I had access to ones more like yours.
Have you ever had the situation where a kid is good at something, and the parent latches onto it and stifles whatever good was coming out of it in the first place? IME with these people, the freedom _is_ the key to the success. The minute you start to bring other people in to help, they lose their baby, and their interest.
Also; The best person is already spending time and resources on it, and they did so without me needing to tell them to do so. They're doing fine without me.
> Is is that unexpected that you would "get in the way" of bad ideas? And let me get this straight, a bad idea comes your way, you do something, a good idea, you do nothing?
I dunno, I guess it depends on how you would expect me to respond to bad ideas. Even a bad idea can have some merit, and I always want my team to talk to me. Flat-out rejecting their misses isn't how I operate, as there's a reason they suggested the thing they did. Maybe they read about a new build tool, and we don't need a new build tool. Next week they might read about a new test approach, or a new game mechanic and we _do_ need one of those. The most important thing is that they talk to me next week, and the next week.
> So at the end of all of that, what it boils down to is that you would do something? We're going to call it "making space" but I feel like that means it's at the top of a list of things you are making sure happen yes?
I'm not really sure what your point is here, sorry. If you're trying to pin down "what exact action would you take in the hypothetical situation that a high performing engineer comes to you with an unspecified item of extreme value" from me, I think I'm destined to miss the mark for what you're looking for. I think I've been clear - my job is to let high/excellent performers do excellent things, and if they're already doing that then my job is to just let them keep doing it. The real hard part is getting everyone else to _not_ go on tangents because they think they're a wolf.
> Good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it.
Good work does speak for itself. The work speaks directly to other like minded engineers who "get it" and spread the word.
Nobody in authority needs to do any selling or mandating for the kind of work and the kind of person Rands is talking about here.
Authority may not have to sell or mandate for that person to get their work done but supporting good ideas and effective people is what authority should be doing.
> and then what
You’re missing the point. My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”.
> you seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way.
Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way.
> if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good are you just
You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team.
As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting.
If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
One of us is
> My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”.
If you see something of extreme value it is not your job to allocate time and resources to it?
> Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way.
And my point is in real life leaderships job is not to "get out of the way" of good ideas or people that get things done, it is to champion them.
> You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team.
First, why would I ask? Is is that unexpected that you would "get in the way" of bad ideas? And let me get this straight, a bad idea comes your way, you do something, a good idea, you do nothing?
> As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting.
That is your job! Their success is your companies success! I do not understand the line you are trying to draw here. Your job is not to champion "someones" project, it is (among other things) to champion amazing projects that you think are jaw droppingly good.
> If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
So at the end of all of that, what it boils down to is that you would do something? We're going to call it "making space" but I feel like that means it's at the top of a list of things you are making sure happen yes?
If you want to keep cutting hairs you can, I will keep supporting people who do good work, no matter how self propelling they are. So far it's worked well for me and them but ymmv.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
Someone comes with an idea? Smile and nod, because ideas are worth the paper they’re printed on. If someone comes to me with a prototype of something that I think is jaw droppinly good, depends on what it is. Internal tool? Ask them what their coworkers think of it. Internal facing admin/feature? Same. User facing feature? Ask them what they think the next step is. The goal is, as you put it, to get everyone on the team trying to tell me it’s a good idea not just one person.
>Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager.
Adding "respectfully" to a sentence that says, "you are wrong and the problem is you", does not make it respectful. You could have simply left it out and your comment would have provided the same content. I'm fine being a kettle but don't pretend you are not a pot.
To get back on topic:
So you would:
- talk to team mates
- ask for next steps
And then what? You seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. But if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good, are you just going to ask some basic questions and do nothing? Or are you going to support it?
edit: for formatting
Dead Comment
"The work was going to be successful without me; he’s a Wolf."
This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. Projects and ideas being thought up by "wolves" that are incredible so often die because of lack of support from management. If I talked to a senior leader about an idea and they thought it was jaw droppingly good, and their only resulting action was to tell my boss, "oh yeah, that thing x is working is interesting", during a prescheduled meeting, I would never have faith in that person again.
Good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it. The most capable "1000x" engineer in the world can never achieve anything if someone better at talking has the mic.
edit: spelling
Let me tell you, you folks weren't the only ones caught off guard by the current American political leadership. I think Europe is still betting this is more theater than anything and things will move back towards baseline in the long run, which I think is a fair bet, but I do wish they would hedge that bet a bit more than they are currently.
1. Start with a mostly manual, people labor based, system that works well (handing Joann receipts) 2. It begins to not cost-scale well with growth (department size increases) or a salesmen comes around with a service that offers to do the same thing for less (Concur) or both 3. The company switches to reduce costs 4. The new service is cheaper partly because it offloads work onto employees (filling out travel expense forms) and by cheaping out on the experience (not caring that the forms are not easy to understand and the system is annoying to use) 5. Employees now have to spend time doing a task they never did and their experience is worse
And it stays in this state forever because the observable costs (service cost vs some number of Joann's) are less. The fact that expensive employees (A department full of Phd's) are now wasting time and being annoyed by this system are not seen. The hours used to fill out those forms and lost productivity due to anger are never accounted for. Also the higher ups are detached because they still have their own personal Joann's taking care of everything.