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boltzmann-brain commented on Vouch   github.com/mitchellh/vouc... · Posted by u/chwtutha
miki123211 · 4 days ago
The "money goes to the repo part" is the problem here, as it incentivizes maintainers to refuse legitimate pull requests.

Crypto has a perfect way to burn money, just send it to a nonexistent address from where it can never be recovered. I guess the trad fi equivalent are charitable donations.

The real problem here is the amount of work necessary to make this viable. I bet Visa and Mastercard would look at you funny if your business had such a high rate of voluntary transaction reversals, not to mention all the potential contributors that have no access to Visa/MC (we do want to encourage the youth to become involved with Open Source). This basically means crypto, and crypto has its own set of problems, particularly around all the annoying KYC/AML that a normie has to get through to use it.

boltzmann-brain · 4 days ago
> The "money goes to the repo part" is the problem here, as it incentivizes maintainers to refuse legitimate pull requests.

That's not true. The issue is that the system the comment you're replying to described is escrow. Escrow degenerates in the way that you describe. I explain it a bit more in this comment elsewhere on this post:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46943416

A straight up non-refundable participation payment does not have this issue, and creates a different set of incentives and a different economy, while there also exist escape hatches for free-of-charge contributions.

> The real problem here is the amount of work necessary to make this viable.

Not necessarily. This article mentions Tezos, which is capable of doing such things on-chain already:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46938811

> all the annoying KYC/AML that a normie has to get through to use it.

There are always escape hatches. If your code is so great that people will want to pull it, then you don't pay to push. If it's not really that great, then what are we talking about? Maybe it disincentivizes mid code being pushed. So be it.

You can make friends, you can make a name for yourself, you can make a fork that's very successful and upstream will want to pull it in, you can exert social pressure / marketing to get your code merged in. Lots of options that do not involve KYC/AML.

For everyone else, I'd say KYC/AML are a good idea because of the increasing amount of supply chain exploits being pushed out into repos. If pushing by randos is gated by KYC/AML, then there's at least some method of chasing the perps down and taking them to justice.

That's a win-win-win-win situation. Less mid code, less exploits, earnings for maintainers, AI slop blocked. Absolutely amazing.

boltzmann-brain commented on Vouch   github.com/mitchellh/vouc... · Posted by u/chwtutha
KronisLV · 4 days ago
> It should just be $1 to submit PR.

This, but for an escrow so people can show their actual interest in GitHub Issues, instead of just demanding new features or fixes. So if it gets implemented, the devs get the bounty, if not then they're refunded. I sometimes think about how this could help fund open source at least a little bit.

No comment on making PRs paid, not everyone would react well to that, and some people might be in countries and circumstances where any amount would be problematic.

boltzmann-brain · 4 days ago
pay-to-commit has been discussed in the article linked here

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46938811

escrow is a more complex system, and there are multiple possible implementations, but the nice thing is you can skip it and get the same results.

let's assume for a second that the repo owner spends time on PR review, and that time needs to be reimbursed. let's also assume that the person pushing a PR expects some sort of bounty. then as long as the review price is less than bounty price, there's no need for escrow. the pushing party goes out on a limb paying the reviewer to merge their PR, but also expects (rightly or not) to be remunerated for solving the bounty. whether they really did solve it is in the remit of the bounty originator, who might or might not be part of the group controlling the repository. if there's escrow, then the bounty giver probably has to be part of that group. not having escrow allows for crowd funding by interests outside of the repo controlling party.

escrow is only usefully different in a situation when there is no bounty, you want to push code, and then you want to say "ok, here's some money, and here's a PR, either accept the PR and give me money or don't accept it and take my money" as a means of skipping the line or getting a shot at pushing in the first place. however, at that point two things are apparent: 1. you expect the reviewer to do work required to implement your desired changes for free and 2. this might start getting abused, with PRs getting rejected (to gain money) but then modified / refactored versions of this code being pushed via commits or from another user who is the repo owner's puppet (refactoring code is becoming super cheap due to AI). so that degenerates escrow-to-push into a scam.

there are more considerations like that in the article I linked to. I agree that an economy around FOSS pushing would be desirable. it also doesn't preclude free-as-in-money contributions - there are at least two mechanisms that would allow it: 1. you get sponsored by someone who sees your talent (either gives you money to push, or they have push access to that repo and can hand it out free) 2. you create a fork that becomes so good and valuable that upstream pulls from you for free

ultimately becoming a respected developer with free push access to contended repositories should be something that you can monetize to some extent that's purely within your remit, and it would greatly reduce unserious bullshit coming from third parties (especially all those weird hardware developers) and make it easier to be a FOSS dev.

boltzmann-brain commented on Vouch   github.com/mitchellh/vouc... · Posted by u/chwtutha
tolerance · 4 days ago
You could argue that this could increase output to the open web: outsiders still need a place to clout chase.
boltzmann-brain · 4 days ago
GitHub has never been a good method of clout chasing. in decades of being in this industry, I've seen < 1% of potential employers care about FLOSS contributions, as long as you have some stuff on your GH.
boltzmann-brain commented on Vouch   github.com/mitchellh/vouc... · Posted by u/chwtutha
a-dub · 4 days ago
this highlights the saddest thing about this whole generative ai thing. beforehand, there was opportunity to learn, deliver and prove oneself outside of classical social organization. now that's all going to go away and everyone is going to fall back on credentials and social standing. what an incredible shame for social mobility and those who for one reason or another don't fit in with traditional structures.
boltzmann-brain · 4 days ago
Vouch is a good quick fix, but it has some properties that can lead to collapsed states, discussed in the article linked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46938811
boltzmann-brain commented on Dev web of trust and ecosystem (including an analysis of Vouch)   github.com/cheater/articl... · Posted by u/boltzmann-brain
boltzmann-brain · 4 days ago
An exposition of problems in trust ecosystems, a critique of Vouch, and a suggestion for some fixes.
boltzmann-brain commented on "Five-Point Haskell" Part 1: Total Depravity   blog.jle.im/entry/five-po... · Posted by u/jle
boltzmann-brain · 10 days ago
> Total Depravity: If your code’s correctness depends on keeping complicated interconnected structure in your head, a devastating incident is not a matter of if but when.

> Therefore, delegate these concerns to tooling and a sufficiently powerful compiler, use types to guard against errors, and free yourself to only mentally track the actual important things.

boltzmann-brain commented on My fast zero-allocation webserver using OxCaml   anil.recoil.org/notes/oxc... · Posted by u/noelwelsh
zozbot234 · 10 days ago
> infer or constrain the amount of copies and allocations a piece of code has

That's exactly what substructural logic/type systems allows you to do. Affine and linear types are one example of substructural type systems, but you can also go further in limiting moves, exchanges/swaps etc. which helps model scenarios where allocation and deallocation must be made explicit.

boltzmann-brain · 10 days ago
boltzmann-brain commented on My fast zero-allocation webserver using OxCaml   anil.recoil.org/notes/oxc... · Posted by u/noelwelsh
aseipp · 10 days ago
There are ongoing projects like Granule[1] that are exploring more precise resource usage to be captured in types, in this case by way of graded modalities. There is of course still a tension in exposing too much of the implementation details via intensional types. But it's definitely an ongoing avenue of research.

[1] http://granule-project.github.io/granule.html

boltzmann-brain · 10 days ago
can Granule let me specify the following constraints on a function?

- it will use O(n) space where n is some measure of one of the parameters (instead of n you could have some sort of function of multiple measures of multiple parameters)

- same but time use instead of space use

- same but number of copies

- the size of an output will be the size of an input, or less than it

- the allocated memory after the function runs is less than allocated memory before the function runs

- given the body of a function, and given that all the functions used in the body have well defined complexities, the complexity of the function being defined with them is known or at least has a good upper bound that is provably true

boltzmann-brain commented on France Is Building Its Own Google Workspace – With Django   bhusalmanish.com.np/blog/... · Posted by u/phn
Nextgrid · 10 days ago
To be fair, the problems it's trying to solve are also from "yesteryear" and do not require some groundbreaking new tech. But out of interest what would you pick instead?
boltzmann-brain · 10 days ago
Rust or Haskell. Python is subpar in terms of maintainability especially when it comes to long-running, generational, massive, codebases. Python is also massively worse when it comes to performance. Haskell strikes the perfect balance here, I've worked at companies with massive codebases where maintaining is still a breeze years later. This simply does not happen with any OOP languages, the code always turns into an ingrown hedge with time.

Especially when it comes to long-running projects like what's attempted here, Python, even being a technology from yesteryear, isn't even suited for problems of yesteryear.

With projects like these maintainability is your #1 concern, so referential transparency (greatly reinforced by laziness-by-default) and purity are indispensable and irreplaceable here.

The next concern is adequate performance, and Haskell has that in heaps.

The final concern is the capability to find programmers, and there are heaps of those in Haskell land.

u/boltzmann-brain

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