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amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
abraae · 5 years ago
The recruitment industry has always had parallels to dating.

We have two parties who don't want their time wasted, but want to get together as quickly as possible if it's a good match, while maintaining their dignity and their privacy.

The industry is permanently grappling with ways to make this process scalable. The road is littered with the dead hulks of companies that felt like they had cracked the code. Yet still a huge chunk of the industry belongs to plain old middlemen - recruiters - or even to word of mouth and other age old human behaviours. That reflects the fact that so far, no-one has really cracked the code, and there is often still benefit to both parties in having someone in the middle.

All of the questions that you ask are totally valid and can be viewed as just part of the dance of bringing job and talent together.

My personal belief is that the solution is out there, it's just quite complex (human are complex). It probably involves:

- karma of some kind (randos can't arrive and start pushing their friends/colleagues in front of employers without restriction)

- rate limits (if you've put forward 20 people, maybe you need to slow down until some of them have been "processed")

- candidate care limits (employers probably can't access more "candidates" until they have courteously dispatched any existing ones by hiring them or providing a formal rejection, ideally with feedback).

- saving face (graceful ways for candidates to be told their salary is out of whack, for them to push back on referrers who are spamming them out too widely, for employers to make candidate feel they were a good second place, as opposed to a failure, etc. etc., all the social lubrication that makes the world go around.

In short, the whole area of recruitment will always be fraught and fought over because there's no much damn money to be made.

But no one IMO will meaningfully "win" in this area until they deliver a platform that has deep, rich set of human-oriented behaviours and functionality that really dig in deep to what it means to be a candidate, an employer, a referrer, and treat everyone with courtesy and (yes) financial reward as required.

Just as StackOverflow became successful because it catered to the exact question and answer communication patterns that are suited to programmers seeking help, some recruitment platform will succeed because it caters to the communication patterns that are associated with gigs finding talent and talent finding gigs.

Source: many years spent building corporate recruitment systems.

amitsy · 5 years ago
This is awesome! There are so many gems here that even if pick up 50% of it and deliver on it, we would be golden. This is probably the most nuanced advise I have received on the sector/our approach and I would have spoken to 100+ VCs and other people doing recruitment. HN is great
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
nsxwolf · 5 years ago
If this doesn't let you skip the whiteboard interview, it sounds like just one more step in the terrible process of interviewing for engineering jobs.
amitsy · 5 years ago
Thanks for that feedback. Yeah, that's one of the major aspects we are focusing on (we are not 100% there). Especially since we work with early-age startups and founders directly in most cases we theoretically can do that. It might take sometime to build that trust though
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
jedberg · 5 years ago
Usually when someone asks me for a recommendation, I ask them what kind of skills they are looking for and their preferred contact info, and then if I have a friend who might be interested I send my friend the contact info of the person hiring.

So maybe you might want to consider flipping your process. Make it so I can see what skills the companies are looking for and then make it easy to send a message to my friend with their contact info, in a way where you can trace the recommendation back to me.

amitsy · 5 years ago
Interesting. So instead of recommending your friends, you would be recommending best-suited companies to your friends? I have seen a few of my friends do that when they are helping someone with a job switch.
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
dreamer7 · 5 years ago
I would love to try out your platform for my current hiring needs. Good luck with the launch!

One UI feedback for your website - On your contact form for companies, text isn't visible when the form field is not in focus. The text colour matches too closely with the field background.

Edit - Also, on submitting the form, the success/ confirmation text did not appear in the visible window. I had to scroll up to see it

amitsy · 5 years ago
Thanks for the feedback. We will fix it right away :)
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
endymi0n · 5 years ago
As much as I'd like to give this a go, my findings so far is that recommendations from anyone you don't fully trust already are as broken and prone to gaming as any other indicator in the job market.

As (almost) always, it's so ubiquitous that the German language even invented a word for that fact: "wegloben". Loosely translated as: praising someone away.

Why is it broken? Because while it's certainly possible that someone would recommend the best people they've ever worked with in the rare case of a sudden bankruptcy, chances are usually far, far higher that people try to recommend the weaker ones they had to let go in times of hardship to others, simply because they want to be nice and soften the blow.

Been there, done that. Multiple times.

If there's _really_ someone excellent, you move heaven and earth to keep them around in your own team.

amitsy · 5 years ago
It is an excellent point and very similar to the experience we had seen when we first started with this approach. We have seen that once financial incentives and limits on no of people whom you can recommend, were introduced, people were not just praising anybody and everybody.

Another interesting phenomenon we see is that people don't generally recommend people from their current emplpoyer, they generally do from previous ones or their college friends.

amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
thescribbblr · 5 years ago
Best wishes the Memer team!
amitsy · 5 years ago
Thank you so much! Yeah, Memer was our previous startup where we figured out the extent of difficulty of tech hiring.
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
tomhallett · 5 years ago
When I "vouch" for a friend, what happens on the friend's side? Am I opting them in to getting email(s) from weekday?

If so, that seems slightly odd that I'm going through my top 10 friends on linked-in, vouching for them so that they are now going to get some a cold email(s), but I have no insight if those 10 people are looking for jobs and want this email at all. I'm pretty much saying to my friends "Hey, I just gave your info to this random company so hopefully I'll make some money off you." (And yes, it is true that I'm "helping" them get a job, but the people I'd vouch for don't need help, in this market they can get a job very quickly)

I will admit that some aspects of what I mention above are true in the "screen-share call" example you gave above, BUT it's the fact that the screen-share alternative is clunky/painful which makes it more socially acceptable. The automation/scale of your new approach starts to feel more spammy.

When you say "No recruiter mails" on your website, what does that mean exactly? Who is the subject of that sentence and who is the object? Subject: weekday recruiter? in-house recruiters at tech companies? contingency recruiters? Object: me the voucher? the person I'm vouching for?

Note: I'm not trying to be mean or negative, I'm just trying to understand the full feedback loop, so I can be empathetic to all parties, especially my friends. :)

amitsy · 5 years ago
Very legit point! That is a concern that some of our prospective users do share. What they do in that case is vouch for ones who they know are looking out or can benefit from vouching (eg. folks who struggle at DS/algo interviews etc).

On the "no recruiter mails", I just realised that it might be confusing. What I meant that just because you vouch for someone, it doesn't mean that they will get bombarded with spammy recruiter mails. I think that means object is the person you are voucher for and subject is contingency and in-house recruiters at tech companies.

amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
maxehmookau · 5 years ago
Regardless of how wonderful this product may, or may not, be:

"Install chrome extension to APPLY"

No thanks.

amitsy · 5 years ago
Sorry about that. I understand that it's a big friction point. We would be piloting a web app as well soon to solve for that :)
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
Fjolsvith · 5 years ago
I.e. Good ole boy's club.
amitsy · 5 years ago
Yeah. That does happen to be an inherent problem with a recommendation/referral based system. We do see that people recommend engineers very similar to them in profile/demographic. We try to solve it by seeding with a diverse base of scouts.
amitsy commented on Launch HN: Weekday (YC W21) – Hire engineers vouched for by other engineers    · Posted by u/amitsy
neeleshs · 5 years ago
I'd subscribe (as a company) if you didn't have the 10k yearly fees. I view recruiting as point in time events (we are a startup) rather than a continuous process.
amitsy · 5 years ago
We also have a different plan where it's completely success-based. You pay only if you hire any of our vouched engineers. We charge 15% of annual base salary in that case though.

u/amitsy

KarmaCake day84May 22, 2013
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