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alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
komali2 · 3 months ago
Your understanding of American immigration law is incorrect, I'd like to correct you to perhaps help align your understanding of American history with the somewhat wrong-headed idea you have of American values. America didn't become "the melting pot" by having communist-style border checkpoints.

For basically the entire first 80% of our history, the most the federal government would do in regards to immigration was write down someone's name and nationality, then send them on their way. You're right that in the early 1900s, there were finally some restrictions passed, but by that point the national fabric of America was already sewn, and even those restrictions only applied to specific countries. Right up to the modern era, millions and millions of people have been moving to the USA, and only very, very recently has there been an extremely formalized process, or efforts to go out of the way to deport people that aren't committing actual crimes (overstaying visas is a modern thing, and isn't the kind of crime I'm talking about) (and before you get on me about breaking the law making someone a criminal, lemme know how many times you've driven over the speed limit, and whether you verify your turn signals, headlights, and brakelights work every time you operate a motor vehicle).

I grant you that the government is often at odds at our values, such as with the Chinese exclusion act or when they put Japanese in internment camps, but the American culture has been pro-immigration and pro-refugee for our whole history. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses..." No way in hell bureaucracy is more important to us than that value.

American conservative media are really good at repainting history, so they seem to have convinced some people such as yourself that American sovereignty is predicated upon a tightly controlled and monitored border, but that's basically the opposite of the truth of our history. My guess is that the conservatives need scapegoats to distract from the collapse of the living conditions of the working class from the true reasons (higher concentration of wealth) and so they've picked immigrants this time, a typical target. What genuinely surprises me is that people on hacker news, who I consider typically more media-savvy than the average person, are falling for this as well.

Anyway maybe take a quick scan of the wikipedia article to get a better understanding of our history in relation to immigration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_...

alex43578 · 3 months ago
If your argument against immigration regulation and enforcement boils down to “we’ve only been doing it for 120 years”, that’s got some pretty rough consequences for welfare, civil rights on the basis of race, and even the income tax, right?

If you want to go back to a pre-1900s American system and return to that national fabric, sure! Repeal the NFA and free our 2nd amendment. Repeal the income tax and welfare state, and go back to funding the government via tariffs and excise taxes (the liberal media sure convinced some people tariffs were an anathema to America, right?).

Your idealized “America the melting pot” thrived on the basis of people actually working for what they had, both immigrant and 3rd generation American; rather than sitting around drawing Social Security, disability, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, WIC,TANF, EITC, and housing assistance. I think you’re on to something!

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
sethammons · 3 months ago
innocent til proven guilty. This is a core tenant. To not believe such is firmly unamerican.
alex43578 · 3 months ago
It is a core tenant for criminal trials, not the civil proceedings of immigration. Instead, lower standards, including probable cause for detainment, or a "preponderance of the evidence" standard for the immigration proceedings is sufficient. That is and has been the American standard.

Legal immigrants to America for over a century accepted and complied with these legal processes, many of which were even more burdensome or discriminatory (quotas, Chinese Exclusion Act, Immigration Act of 1924, etc).

It's unamerican to undermine a core tenant of the US's national sovereignty: the "sovereign right of States to determine their national migration policy", by arguing that unregulated, irregular migration is the norm and that any action to enforce immigration law is unthinkable.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
komali2 · 3 months ago
Genuine question: Are you a communist, or perhaps a member of a former communist state? What you're discussing is how Americans perceive the Soviets or the Maoists, it doesn't really align with American values as I grew up understanding them.

"Show me your papers" is not something I think most Americans think is acceptable to be asked of them.

alex43578 · 3 months ago
Excepting “sovereign citizens”, most Americans comply when asked to show ID on a traffic stop, their passport at customs, a drivers license when renting a car, or even ID when swiping a credit card at Walmart.

Do you think all Americans are just running around bartering for corn with bullets? Showing ID when engaging in modern society has become common - except when voting, of course, oddly enough :P

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
ceejayoz · 3 months ago
I am not obligated to carry papers as a citizen.

If I answer "yep, I'm a citizen", and ICE says at one of the internal checkpoints "well we don't believe you, prove it", what now?

alex43578 · 3 months ago
If ICE has probable cause to believe you are an alien and don’t have the necessary documents, you could be detained or arrested.

If ICE doesn’t have probable cause to believe you’re an alien, you’re free to go.

Things could be different based on state-level stop and identify statutes when interacting with state LEO.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
aqme28 · 3 months ago
> Immigration is arguably even more important to enforce in this manner because of the clear-cut legal alternative.

We're talking about an immigration policy that is now rounding people up at their legal immigration appointments. This is not about maintaining a legal alternative, and to argue that it is feels disingenuous.

alex43578 · 3 months ago
Under expedited removal, an established legal process, these undocumented immigrants are being deported, and are free to pursue their asylum claim in the meantime.

It’s disingenuous to argue that they have any more right to be here than any other undocumented immigrant, just because they happened to be detained at a courthouse.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
ceejayoz · 3 months ago
I can not shop at Costco, not buy beer, and not fly.

I can't not interact with law enforcement, which is why we have things like the Fourth Amendment to protect us in those non-consensual scenarios.

alex43578 · 3 months ago
And you are protected. These are not unreasonable searches.
alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
pjc50 · 3 months ago
I think a lot of people believe that there ought to be a statute of limitations on immigration; if you've been peacefully living and working in the country for many years, what's the actual public purpose of deporting someone? Including breaking up a family?
alex43578 · 3 months ago
The purpose of deporting them is the same as punishing any other crime: to disincentivize committing it.

Immigration is arguably even more important to enforce in this manner because of the clear-cut legal alternative.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
pjc50 · 3 months ago
> what methods are you suggesting we use to keep our immigrant population tracked and controlled?

You can't track and control only immigrants. Any such system would include tracking and controls of citizens, simply in order to sort them into the "not immigrant" category.

Hence all the "papers please".

(Not to mention the false positive problem!)

alex43578 · 3 months ago
Surprise, you’re already tracked in a dozen harmless ways that enable modern life: drivers license, Social Security number, birth certificate, etc; even before you get into quasi-public records like credit reporting, bank accounts, and insurance.

Acting like showing ID to an immigration official is some unprecedented intrusion is absurd. Fly domestically, shop at Costco, or buy a 6 pack of beer and you’ll end up showing more “papers” than a typical interaction with Customs/ICE, assuming you’re not illegal.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
jeffbee · 3 months ago
Anybody get tear-gassed for not wearing a mask?
alex43578 · 3 months ago
Equating not wearing a mask with assaulting federal agents, damaging federal property, or being part of an unlawful assembly doing the former is quite a stretch.

Be realistic about why the groups in LA are getting tear-gassed or pepperball’d.

alex43578 commented on Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution   smithsonianmag.com/histor... · Posted by u/bookofjoe
alex43578 · 3 months ago
Surely you recognize the same “representative government forms the core American value” you laud is both the mechanism by which the current administration was elected, as well as the same mechanism that passed the immigration laws that are being enforced, right?

u/alex43578

KarmaCake day2May 19, 2025View Original