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Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
AnthonyMouse · a month ago
> But in theory fingerprinting with protocol RTT difference where one protocol is proxied and the other is impossible to bypass, but this is only the theory.

Alice wants you to think she's in New York when she's really in Taipei, so she gets a VM in New York and runs a browser in it via RDP. How are you detecting this?

Sakura-sx · a month ago
I am not detecting that, I am just detecting L4 proxies for now sob
Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
jeroenhd · a month ago
Do raw TCP proxies still get used often? I'd imagine most proxies you'd want to detect are full HTTP proxies and this formula won't detect those.

I suppose it's possible botnets ("residential proxies") may get detected this way if they're using SOCKS to forward requests?

Still, this looks like an interesting signal to add to a system like Anubis to increase the difficulty for suspicious traffic sources.

This does very reliably detect TOR traffic, though you can just download a list of exit nodes if that's what you want.

Sakura-sx · a month ago
I think for stealth TCP proxies are more common since you can use your own TLS fingerprints and all of that, with something like an HTTP proxy you'd need to set up your requests to match with the TLS fingerprint that the proxy is using, although I guess the proxy could make the TLS look the same? There are other ways of detecting HTTP proxies like for example comparing with the RTT of websockets or something like that, the idea is that there will always be at least one thing with RTT from the proxy and at least the RTT for one thing from the client that must go trough the proxy, you measure the difference between the two and there you have it.
Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
userbinator · a month ago
The minimal explanation is that TCP is "turned around" at a dumb proxy, but upper-layer protocols may go further before being turned around. Which is trivially avoidable by delaying the TCP response with the same timing as the upper-layer protocol (and doing so to the protocol above that, etc.)
Sakura-sx · a month ago
The issue is that if HTTP is an extra 50ms than TCP for example, if you increase TCP by 50ms now HTTP is 100ms more. Basically it is always more no matter how much you increase it.
Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
29athrowaway · a month ago
If you like this then you will probably like "The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage", a 1989 book by Clifford Stoll.

Also available as audiobook, and a documentary ("The KGB, The computer and Me"). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe5AE-qYan8

Sakura-sx · a month ago
Thank you! Will check it out!
Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
viraptor · a month ago
Just in case someone tries to use it to make some kind of judgement about the traffic - there's a whole world behind legit or enforced proxies. Especially corporate environments will often tunnel all the traffic for compliance and audit reasons.
Sakura-sx · a month ago
Yes, it's important to keep this in mind, thanks for your comment!
Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
JDye · a month ago
I'm testing using our residential proxies.

It's a super cool tool, I've been wondering about an open source tool doing this since reading about the technique in one of Nikolai Tschacher's blog posts years ago (https://incolumitas.com/pages/about/).

There's a few ways to work around this, but I think it's one of the best signals available to detect low-effort/common proxy providers.

Sakura-sx · a month ago
Oh I haven't seen that before, it's really cool, thank you for showing me that!

I want to clarify that the approaches are a bit different, they use IP intelligence too and this approach doesn't use any kind of websockets, which is a really good idea, and I have to admit I didn't think of that, but sadly it's not really possible to do it with Fastly.

Another big difference is that this could work with any TCP application, not only HTTP, and if you do it with HTTP/S you can know if it's a proxy or not on a request basis and totally passively, without adding any delay or changing the code of the app.

But yeah, it's a really cool demo, thanks again!

Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
kees99 · a month ago
Very clever, I like it.

When deployed on a popular server, one bit of "IP intelligence" this detector itself can gather is keep database of lowest-seen RTT per given source IP, maybe with some filtering - to cut out "faster-than-light" datapoints, gracefully update when actual network topology changes, etc.

That would establish a baseline, and from there, additional end-to-end RTT should become much more visible.

Sakura-sx · a month ago
First of all, thanks!

I imagine any big CDN implementing something like this could keep a database of all of this, combined with the old kind of IP intelligence and collecting not only RTT on other protocols like TLS, HTTP, IP (aka ping, and traceroutes too), TCP fingerprint, TLS fingerprint, HTTP fingerprint...

And with algorithms that combine and compare all these data points, I think very accurate models of the proxy could be made. And for things like credit card fraud this could be quite useful.

Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
JDye · a month ago
To answer your first question, in my tests its around 50% of requests making it through.
Sakura-sx · a month ago
Are you using a proxy? If you aren't that would be concerning, since false positives are way worse than false negatives.

If you are then it means the score is sometimes a bit lower and sometimes a bit higher than 0.1, which is the threshold for getting blocked.

If you want to know the exact score, you can check https://aroma.global.ssl.fastly.net/score

It's set at a low threshold since I want to avoid blocking regular users at all costs, I think the detection can be improved a lot by using more data and not a single division to calculate the score, in this case it's a somewhat simple PoC.

Thanks for taking the time to test it, I really appreciate it!

Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
vlovich123 · a month ago
This feels like something that’s a neat claim and will work against simple setups, but less accurate for more complicated scenarios (eg Tor). Then you’re really just relying on how accurate your knowledge of the proxies are.

Also, the readme has slightly incorrect logic I think:

> According to Special Relativity, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore, if the round trip time (RTT) is 4ms, it's physically impossible for them to be farther than 2 light milliseconds away, which is approximately 600 kilometers.

It calls out the 33% for fiber but ignores that there’s not a straightline path between two points on the network and there could be wireless, cable, and DSL links somewhere on that hop.

Also, the controlled variable here is latency, not distance. Thus you can always increase latency through buffering and therefor you could be made to appear further than you are. And that buffering need not even be intentional - your perceived distance estimate will vary based upon queuing delays in intermediary depending on time of day (itself a fingerprint if you incorporate time-aware measurements, but a source of error if you don’t).

Fingerprinting is hard and I dislike the framing that it’s absolutely impossible to mask or that there’s not false positive and false negative error rates with the fingerprint.

Sakura-sx · a month ago
About the straightline path I did think of that but apparently I forgot to address it when writing the README :p

The point I was trying to make is that if the RTT is low enough you can know the connection is being made from close, it's an upper bound, and making some assumptions you can get it lower, so it's not a way of knowing the exact distance but rather the max distance the connection can be made from. If someone is in Spain but they can't be more than 400km from Australia, something went terribly wrong somewhere hehe

In hindsight I think the issue with my explanation is that I was trying to explain the differences when fingerprinting two different protocols, but ended up going for a TCP-only approach since Fastly wouldn't expose to me the data I needed for the TLS and HTTP RTT. But in theory fingerprinting with protocol RTT difference where one protocol is proxied and the other is impossible to bypass, but this is only the theory.

I think I will edit the README in the future since I don't like how it turned out too much. Thanks for the feedback!

By the way, it detects Tor, I tested it ;D

Sakura-sx commented on Show HN: Aroma: Every TCP Proxy Is Detectable with RTT Fingerprinting   github.com/Sakura-sx/Arom... · Posted by u/Sakura-sx
Bender · a month ago
I like this. I could see this being extra useful for people not using CDN's if they could easily plug it into nginx, haproxy and such. Currently for proxies I look for the proxy headers and also use a list of known proxy IP's but that is obviously nowhere near as complete as what you built. It might also be interesting to test assorted configurations of SSH forwards and MitM TLS caching proxies such as Squid SSL Bump.
Sakura-sx · a month ago
I guess for this to work best you'd build your own CDN and have as many servers as possible. I have always dreamed of an Open Source CDN managed by a nonprofit and dedicated to offering CDN services for free or for a reasonable cost.

If you did the timings by comparing to other protocols, like TLS or HTTP you could do this with a single server, but that's a bit more complex than doing it on the same protocol since you have to account for more stuff, but it could be done, at the end of the day, my idea with Aroma was mostly to prove that it's possible, thanks for the feedback btw!

u/Sakura-sx

KarmaCake day95June 23, 2025View Original