RemoteIsHeaven (u/RemoteIsHeaven)

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

indymike · a year ago

My experience is that burnout comes in two forms:

Fatigue - too much stress and/or effort over an extended time.

Disillusionment - company doesn't have your back or love you back.

Honestly, most burnout is mostly caused by managers and culture that just doesn't care about people. A good manager will get an employee who is approaching burnout to take a break/vacation or even change up what they are working on.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> most burnout is mostly caused by managers and culture that just doesn't care about people. A good manager will get an employee who is approaching burnout to take a break/vacation or even change up what they are working on

Agreed and a great manager won't cause burnout because they fundamentally understand what the expectations of their employees are!

I explained a bit of this in my root comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39809297

Curious to hear what your thoughts are

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

sublinear · a year ago

I burnt out after 4 years at my first job. It was at a startup.

I have been working 5+ years at my current job at a much larger company and burnout is unlikely. I get paid better and have less responsibility.

I'm undecided if the burnout was caused by the job or my inexperience. It was probably both.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> I'm undecided if the burnout was caused by the job or my inexperience. It was probably both.

Likely the job as in the management - I explained their role in my root comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39809297

Curious to hear what your thoughts are

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

JohnBrookz · a year ago

Yes. I work at a very comfortable job with decent pay and benefits.

What burns me out is the bureaucracy, politics and having to deal with people who simply aren’t curious or interested about anything in the slightest leading the charge.

I’ve been working on a startup on the side with my friend for almost a year now and the work has rarely ever burnt me out.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> I’ve been working on a startup on the side with my friend for almost a year now and the work has rarely ever burnt me out.

Well done! I explained this paradox in my root comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39809297

Curious to hear what your thoughts are

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

Aurornis · a year ago

Burnout can be as much about what you do outside of work as what happens during working hours.

In some cases it’s easy to identify a workplace as the cause of burnout: Companies that require 50-80 hour weeks, bosses who yell and scream regularly, psychologically manipulative situations, and environments where people are prevented from having control over their own outcomes are going to take a toll on anyone. Getting any new job is statistically likely to be an improvement.

But I talk to a lot of developers who say they’re burnt out but who go on to describe relatively comfortable working environments. Some people even manage to get “burned out” at every company they’ve ever worked for, regardless of what it’s like. For these people, I think blaming the job for burnout becomes a cover for different problems.

For some, it’s because they haven’t built much of a life outside of work. As we grow up it’s easy to fall into routine of going to work, going home, and repeating. Some people I talk to haven’t met up with friends for months. Others haven’t taken a vacation in years. Some people can’t name a hobby that doesn’t also involve sitting at computers at the end of the day (gaming is common). For people in this group, changing jobs does very little beyond the initial excitement of meeting new people. If you’re in this group you really need to start getting out and doing things, even if you don’t feel like it initially. Rebuilding a life outside of work can improve one’s stress resilience in the office tremendously.

I’ve also noticed a lot of developers describing classic depression symptoms but calling it burnout lately. Despite changing attitudes toward mental health, people are still resistant to admitting depression in themselves. I’ve had a few friends in recent years who self-diagnosed as being burned out and took time off of work or quit their jobs to recover. Then in the absence of daily routine and social engagement of work, their depression became even deeper. I think the overlap between depression and burnout symptoms has created an opening for people who dislike the idea of being depressed to blame their jobs for all of their problems, which can delay treatment for a long time. For people in this situation it’s best to explore all explanations and be open to the possibility that maybe there’s more going on.

A good heuristic might be to look around you. If many of the people at your company are unhappy, burned out, or turning over rapidly then it’s probably your job. On the other hand if you’re one of the few people who seems to be struggling or of you’ve felt “burned out” at every job since college, maybe there’s more going on that can’t be explained by work alone.

Finally: Different jobs fit different personality types. Some people get bored and drained by slow-moving companies. Other people have difficulty handling any pressure or unpredictability at work. What works for someone else may not necessarily work for you. Match your job to what suits you best.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> Companies that require 50-80 hour weeks, bosses who yell and scream regularly, psychologically manipulative situations, and environments where people are prevented from having control over their own outcomes are going to take a toll on anyone

If you got paid $250k/yr to work fulltime at Bain and all that work was to shred a single piece of paper, any paper, a day and that is it, no crunch time, no yelling bosses, nothing - would you eventually burn out?

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

araes · a year ago

I recommended "Loyal workers are selectively and ironically targeted for exploitation". [1] From the general discussion:

> Across four studies, we found consistent support for our hypotheses. First, we found that loyal employees are selectively targeted by managers for exploitation in hypothetical scenarios (Studies 1–2), and that the targeting of these loyal workers is mediated by the expectation that loyal people are readily willing to make personal sacrifices for the objects of their loyalty (Study 1). These effects were specific to targets with reputations for loyalty (Study 2)."

"Organizations Weaken the Norm of Reciprocity" [2] from the follow on citation work is also interesting. Basically, a lot of math and surveys to show that diffuse organizations and the "workplace interaction" mentality, tend to result in people helping you less when you help them, work deserving reciprocity getting lost in the organization (it's just business), and business interactions always being viewed as a "what are they gonna do for me?".

Not directly answering your question, yet evidence that Fortune 500's and FAANGs, as large organizations, generally shift towards exploitive, or at the least, behaviors lacking the reciprocity expected. Which tends to burn people out.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00221...

[2] https://aom.org/uploadedFiles/Publications/AMD/How%20Organiz...

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> Fortune 500's and FAANGs, as large organizations, generally shift towards exploitive, or at the least, behaviors lacking the reciprocity expected

1. What could be causing that?

2. What are the chances of this same behavior happening at a Fortune 500000?

3. How would an employee detect that behavior, potentially as early as when interviewing for the job?

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

jacurtis · a year ago

In my experience, burnout is EXTREMELY high for developers. My group of friends and colleagues that I started with in my early twenties have mostly left development and tech for the most part.

By the time most of us were turning 30, about half my cohort of friends and colleagues had given up as developers. By the time I turned 35 almost everyone had. Out of about 30-40 people that I have been somewhat associating with during my career, I can only think of about 5 right now that are still in tech. Four of those five are in management roles. Only one of those people is still a "true developer" (pushing code and commits all day). The rest have moved to infrastructure, security, and related fields.

The ones that left. A surprising number moved to rural areas to slow down their lives. Building homesteads (small personal farms). One actually built a large-scale mushroom farm (culinary/legal mushrooms). A few teach. Quite a few retired early doing the FIRE thing (wish I had been disciplined enough for that). Several are expats. So for the most part, most of them went off to do things that were less chaotic and less stressful.

I almost quit myself in my early 30s. But I was fortunate enough to get promoted into a senior management position, where I am mostly focused on tech strategy and not true "developer work" anymore. I also went back to school and joined a PhD program where I started doing research on encryption and security in something that truly interests me. So that kept me sane. At this point, I am "resting and vesting" at my current job, waiting for them to sell, which they are extremely well suited to do right now. As soon as that happens, I doubt I will find another job in tech. I plan on taking my PhD and staying in academia.

This is anecdotal experience. So your mileage may vary. The pandemic hit as most of us were between 30 and 35, which might have had a disproportionate affect of taking people out of the industry too. So my experience might be more extreme than the average. But basically, I have decided that the reason tech is mostly young people is because it breaks you down as you get older and people just leave. So burnout is a VERY real thing in this industry.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> I was fortunate enough to get promoted into a senior management position, where I am mostly focused on tech strategy and not true "developer work" anymore.

1. Did your find doing the "developer work" itself fulfilling in the first place?

2. If given a choice between your management position and the "developer work", which one would you pick?

3. If you could go back in time and redo everything, would you have started off in management to begin with?

4. What would you have done differently?

I ask these questions because I have a hypothesis that you currently work for bad management and that made the developer work really unfulfilling in part because it gave you no to little agency over your impact. By moving into part of the management layer you got some agency over your impact and managed to disassociate yourself from the unfulfilling developer work, but I would like to learn more from you directly

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

syndicatedjelly · a year ago

I obstinately focus on engineering, technical, programming, and math problems in my work. It affects my performance reviews, because I am told that I am a high-performing individual contributor who “lacks” an eye for the bigger picture, because I show little interest in the business side of things. This has kept me sane at work thus far. We’ll see how long I can keep up this approach.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> a high-performing individual contributor who “lacks” an eye for the bigger picture, because I show little interest in the business side of things

If focusing on engineering, technical, programming, and math problems is really what excites you and you truly have no interest in the business side of things, you should start looking for companies that will only want you to focus on engineering, technical, programming, and math problems and there are a lot of them out there.

If your current place of work complains you “lack” an eye for the bigger picture, and that might be true, that means they dont have good management at all, because a good manager would immediately understand what you value and align you with that or ask you to leave explictly if that's not what they wanted.

Bad management takes no initiative and lack critical decision making skills, stay away.

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

starbugs · a year ago

> but don't fall in love with a project or a company, because there lies burnout.

One part of me agrees. The other part says: But if I wouldn't have fallen in love with what I was doing to begin with, I would never have reached the point of ability that I did reach.

Maybe the only solution to this is to take a break, then try to learn to open your heart again and risk being disappointed once more. Maybe this time, you will be able to recognize it before it's "too late". I don't know.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> I would never have reached the point of ability that I did reach

I think you're conflating skill and ability with impact and expectations.

Early on in your life, your expectations could have been to gain tremendous skill and grow your abilities. You probably didn't care that much if your work went into the trash because in the process, you learned some extremely important and valuable skills. That journey itself made it all worth it and met your expectations.

Over time, as you become more skillful and able, your expectations could change to seeing your work having real impact on the world instead.

This is perhaps, to you, now there's marginal return on being even more skillful and able. You ask "what's the end goal and did I reach it?"

> risk being disappointed once more. Maybe this time, you will be able to recognize it before it's "too late". I don't know

I mentioned in my own comment, the root cause of burnout - be it coding or otherwise, is when expectations don't match reality.

If you're a developer, your impact and outcome is beholden to management, so even through you might not realize it, part of your jobsearch now has to focus on ensuring you detect great management - and you make it a part of your interview to locate them.

The real solution to not being burned out: work with a team that actually knows what they are doing and have strong fundamentals.

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

alsetmusic · a year ago

I went from a FAANG to a twenty-ish person local business. I found out that what matters to me is not money or status. It’s a short commute, work that ends at the same time every day, liking my coworkers, and working directly with the people I help. Some mix of these might be right for you, assuming the bills are covered.

My job has less (no) global impact. What I did previously affected far more people. I told people what project I was on and they thought that was cool. But I don’t hate my life or job and I very much did before.

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

> My job has less (no) global impact. What I did previously affected far more people. I told people what project I was on and they thought that was cool. But I don’t hate my life or job and I very much did before.

As I mentioned in my own comment, the root cause of burnout - be it coding or otherwise, is when expectations don't match reality.

For most people, especially the young, they attach their expectations to the job and work they do. There are also a certain number of people who have other expectations though - like how they can contribute to charity or the well-being of their own family from the money they make, from a job they don't necessarily like or even care about. One example is the popular Bain/McKinsey partner who is happy to sell absolute vaporware that will never be delivered ever, because they don't care whether their customers are happy - their own expectations are how bigger of a yatch or mansion they can upgrade to next year.

It all boils down to what the expectations are and whether they match reality.

RemoteIsHeaven commented on Ask HN: How common is developer burnout? Have you ever been burnt out? · Posted by u/Desafinado

RemoteIsHeaven · a year ago

The root cause of burnout - be it coding or otherwise, is when expectations don't match reality.

In most cases, people want to do meaningful work and see their work having real impact on the world.

If you spent all your waking hours, eating ramen all the while, building something that has outsized impact on the world, you won't be burnt out - quite the opposite!

OTOH, you can even get burnt out doing almost nothing all day, getting paid six figures if your work got thrown away into the trash can regularly (had no impact at all on anyone).

Burnout happens when that expectation doesn't match reality.

> these companies just sound like another high-performance meat grinder

> but are constantly under scrutiny. And smaller companies are all going pseudo-agile to try to squeeze every last ounce from their developers

As bad it sounds, high-performance, being under scrutiny, squeeze every last ounce aren't really the root cause of burnout - these are great symptoms of a broken process that leads to unmet expectations that then causes burnout.

The broken process usually are:

Scenario 1: At big company, BigCo, your work rarely has a direct impact on the customer, or when it does, it could have been years since you actually made the change that makes it way to the customer if it ends up that route at all or you have no way of getting customer feedback.

Result: You question yourself whether working so hard or putting in that overtime was really worth it because you have no idea where that effort ended up

Scenario 2: Someone ambitious, NewGun, at BigCo figured out a shortcut to a promotion - build a new product which is "better, faster" than an existing product CashCow. BigCo is too afraid to make major changes to CashCow (because it is the cash cow) and there's already a layer of management that's known to steward CashCow. NewGun is an outsider so even if NewGun pulled off those major changes to CashCow, they won't get most of the recognition - the CashCow stewards will.

Action: NewGun convinces BigCo to give them a bunch of devs, works them to the bone (because they need results yesterday), skips actual customer research and discovery (because that takes too long and they need results yesterday), makes up usecases and fictitious users

Result: Product flops badly because it doesn't appeal to anyone real. Devs question themselves whether working so hard or putting in that overtime was really worth it

Scenario 3: This is a very close cousin of Scenario 2, except that NewGun is a fresh entrepreneur who convinced some investors to give them money. Result is the same

Micromanagement, scrutiny, squeeze every last ounce are all symptoms of bad management. They by themselves aren't a strong differentiator - great management can do scrutiny, squeezing as well when it's tactically critical, but that's the exception, like pulling the handbrake to avoid an accident, than the norm.

The real solution to not being burned out: work with a team that actually knows what they are doing and have strong fundamentals. How do find those teams is perhaps a separate post as this one's way too long already